submersible pump

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by jim hay, Aug 21, 2007.

  1. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Can a pump be operated on it's side or is it required to be vertical. Being used in a holding tank and want it right on the bottom to take advantage of full capacity of tank..
  2. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    People do it, however....

    Franklin electric says:

    Franklin submersible motors are designed primarily for operation in the vertical, shaft-up position. During acceleration, the pump thrust increases as its output head increases. In cases where the pump head stays below its normal operating range during startup and full speed condition, the pump may create upward thrust. This creates upward thrust on the motor upthrust bearing. This is an acceptable operation for short periods at each start, but running continuously with upthrust will cause excessive wear on the upthrust bearing.

    As the mounting position becomes further from vertical and closer to horizontal, the probability of shortened thrust bearing life increases. For normal motor life expectancy with motor positions other than shaft-up, follow these recommendations:

    1. Minimize the frequency of starts, preferably to fewer than 10 per 24-hour period. 6” and 8” motors should have a minimum of 20 minutes between starts or starting attempts.

    2. Do not use in systems which can run even for short periods at full speed without thrust toward the motor.

    Rancher
  3. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Is my logic sound by placing the pump horizonal to gain capacity on the 1500 gal holding tank or is there a better way?
  4. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    You can also use the Cycle Stop Valve. The valve will prevent the upthrust.
    Cycle Stop Valves

    bob...
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I suggest you hang it vertically.

    Why do you want all you can get out of a 1500 gal tank? You do realize that if you refill it out of a well, you need to take all that water at once or somehow time the well, and the well may not be capable of say 1300 gals all at once.

    So how do you plan on refilling the 1500 gal tank?
  6. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
    tank is being filled from well producing 6 gpm
  7. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    How?

    Rancher
  8. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Most that use a storage tank approach do so because we have a low producing well, but tend only to use the upper 25% of the water in the storage tank before starting the re-fill process, if you have the water available to fill the 1,500 tank all at once, you probably don't need the tank.

    Rancher
  9. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
    holding tank

    Do electric float values have enough lag time so pump filling tank doesn't recycle too often?
  10. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Can you tell us what float switch you are considering?

    If you start the refill at the 75% full point it will take 62 minutes to refill, assuming you aren't using any water at the time, if you are using water, of course it will take longer. 25% of 1,500 gallons is 375 gallons, which is what a small household without irrigation might use per day, so your pump would cycle once a day. The reason why we don't allow the tank to go all the way to empty before starting to re-fill, is for instance assume your 1,500 gallon tank was down to the point the submersible pump layed on it's side was starting to suck air thru a whirlpool effect. You might have 8" of water left in the bottom of the tank, and you would be filling at 6 GPM, what if your lawn sprinklers came on at that time and they required 20 GPM, they would over use what was left in your tank and the well pump couldn't keep up. Think of it as a buffer, it allows you to use water at whatever flow rate you need without worrying about running out.

    Rancher
  11. Raucina

    Raucina Previous member

    Messages:
    515
    The solution is pretty elemental, build a sealed flow inducer sleeve, it slips over the pump...with 4 or 6" pipe that causes the water to be drawn from the bottom. Cut 'V's" in the bottom for the water to pass. This solves your other issue of motor overheating, and now its standing upright. A cycle stop valve wont stop upthrust on start up, and will not allow the motor to be laid down.

    I would rather abandon the last foot of storage, or use a multi stage booster outside the tank.
  12. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    As soon as the pump turns on, the CSV will be holding the pump back which would eliminate upthrust. Upthrust happens when the pump can get more water than it needs with a high water level environment. The impellers actually move up instead of the normal downward motion. The pumps I sell have upthrust prevention built in, so it's no big deal. You can prevent upthrust by using a simple valve if need be.

    bob...
  13. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
    electric float value

    I haven't picked one out yet because I wanted one that would allow draw down on tank of at least 25%. Also is the pump tech best way to shut off pump supplying water to holding tank if well runs out of water? Thanks. No pressure tank on this system.
  14. jim hay

    jim hay New Member

    Messages:
    8
  15. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    You can get 25% with most tanks or you can spread out the on/off settings of the pressure switch to get the same result. But I still say go with a small 42 gallon equivalent tank and a CSV. Problem solved.

    bob...
  16. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Oh I forgot, the Pumptec works good and so does the Cycle Sensor.

    The sub will work much better than the multistage booster pump. It is just a submersible pump stuck on a jet pump motor. Problem is, they are not self priming and that can be a problem.

    bob...
  17. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    So you're saying the CSV causes a significant restriction, even when it hasn't reached it's regulating pressure, I didn't realize that.

    Rancher
  18. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Perhaps we should have had you describe the system first... no pressure tank?


    They're normally placed on a pad at the base of the tank, so there's really no problem with self priming, they get wet just from the level of the water in the tank, unless you run the storage tank dry and then that's a good application for the pressure switch with the low pressure manual reset feature. The nice thing about the booster pump is that it's made to operate horizontally, and it easy to repair, either just buy either a new motor, or new impellers (not so cheap).

    Rancher
  19. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    As long as I have been the business, I have never replaced a single impeller in any submersible or booster pump. The cost is prohibitive. A new pump is almost cheaper. Same goes with replacing just a pump or a motor. When one goes, the other is soon to go also, so why pay all the labor to go through it again?

    You can't compress water, so as soon as the pump comes on, it's pushing against the spring in the valve which in turn prevents upthrust.

    bob...
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yo guys... you can't get more water out of a well than is stored in it plus the recovery rate gpm, and isn't that the reason for the 1500 gal tank; a low producing well?

    The more water taken out of the 1500 tank, the more water, and all at once, the well has to produce. So how does that work?

    A 6" well has 1.47 gal/ft of water above the pump's inlet. A 4" has roughly IIRC, 1 gal/ft. That is plus the 6 gpm recovery. With those figures, assuming like a 100' well with the pump at 95', I see no reason for this 1500 gal tank and how it is going to solve any problem while it creates many more?

    BTW, most American households use 60 gal of water per person per day. That's without irrigation.

    How do you plan on insuring the quality of the 1500 gals of water being stored in an atmospheric storage tank?

    To control the volume used out of this 1500 tank, you adjust the throw of the float switches rather than using a float valve. One turns the pump on for household use but will prevent the pump from running dry, and the other controls the well pump to refill the tank.

    I'm with Speedpump on the thrust problem and the CSV with a small pressure tank. I suggest this on the well and forgetting about the tank. Also, don't forget the water treatment equipment.
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