Strange New Water Heater behavior

[jgrimes227]

Background: 55 gallon AO Smith water heater with two 4500 Watt heating elements goes belly up (tank starts leaking). It was 18 years old. Additionally, we had lots of very bad water hammer. Installed two 24" x 1" water hammer tubes (home built) with drain on the top, drain at the bottom and controlled by ball valves to be able to drain them and recharge them with air. Also installed pressure regulator to bring down the near 80 lbs psi to 40 lbs. Ok - about this time the tank begins leaking - which didn't seem to be related to anything other than age of the tank.

Purchased a far more efficicient 66 gallon Kenmore with a 3500 watt upper element, same on the bottom but strappable to 5000 which I did. It is on a 30 amp breaker and works fine without tripping. I put the tank in with unions and changed out the old cold water gate valve for a ball valve and retrofitted the plastic tank drain valve with a ball valve and a hose connector to make periodic draining of sediment a piece of cake.

Now the problem: I get the proper temperature water initially, but it runs out like in 3-5 minutes. Even the hot water pipe exiting the tank gets very UN-HOT, even after some minutes. I have checked for AC current to both elements - 220V - OK. I have disconnected the wiring at both elements and checked continuity - fine!! The unions I used to make things easier and to make damned sure no heat got to the plastic back-flow? valve on the hot water outlet. Being as this is a brand new unit and while I am classified as a Harry Homeowner - I have installed these things before and have never burned up an element and up until now was always successful in my efforts.
The only thing I can think of is faulty thermostats out of the factory - but those things are pretty simple devices, not to say they can't be faulty, but I could certainly use someone elses opinion on what I might be missing.


I will be calling Sears in the AM - for warranty check-up but would sure like to know what your take is on my problem.

John

 

[Cwhyu2]

Possibible that dip tube has become broken.They are plastic it dosnt take
much for them to become damaged any more.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jgrimes227]

Dip Tube??

Which side is the dip tube on? Thought it was on the cold water side. What is the general nature of the damage - what causes it and what is the outcome.

 

[Redwood]

Did you sweat any connections close to the cold inlet?

 

[Gary Swart]

The dip tube is inserted in the cold water inlet and extends to the bottom of the tank. You can check it by removing the cold water supply line and pulling the tube out. It is held in the opening by a flange on the upper end.

 

[boober]

I just replaced the dip tube on my water heater yesterday. I was having a similar issue, and drained the tank to investigate. I saw the dip tube, and it seemed to be fine, but I replaced it any way and it took care of the issue. Unfortunately, the old tube fell into the tank when I tried to remove it, so that's something to watch out for. Other than that, it's an easy repair that runs less than $3 at Home Depot for the part.

Oddly enough, I flush the tank repeatedly, and now the water doesn't get nearly as hot as it did before. Hot water temperate at its highest setting is only about 120 degrees.

 

[BAPlumber]

last week I came across a water heater that would run out of hot water rather quickly. It turned out the cold and hot were reversed as they came out of the wall. the home owner had installed the cold supply to the hot outlet, and the hot to the cold inlet.

 

[jgrimes227]

Update

soldering near the water heater - Nope. That is why I used unions so I could solder everything in the garage and then neatly attach everything with wrenches.

I Double/Triple checked that the cold water was entering the tank on the cold water side and the hot water on the hot water side. So that isn't it.

Have no idea why the dip tube would be an issue but it is the first thing I will consider when getting back to the issue. Sure got my son and daughter in laws shorts in a twist though. Don't blame 'em with two young 'uns.

I was sure happy with the installation - went smoothly and did everything first class - now this. Will report back when I find out what the problem is/was.

 

[Cass]

While unlikely it could be one was not installed at the factory.

 

[jgrimes227]

Late Breaking GOOOD news

I spoke with the "Quick Resolution Center" at Sears this AM. They immediatly asked me what the Thermostats were set at - both had been set at 140 degrees. I was told that was the problem!!! They explained that the upper element should be set at a much lower temperature than the bottom element - they said to set it at its lowest temp. setting, and the lower element set at the target temperature you want the water at the spigot to be. (more or less). "Why?" I asked. "Because," they replied, "the top element works first to heat water at the top of the water heater. After it heats the water on the top, it transfers power to the lower element. If both are set at the same temperature, only the small portion of water at the top of the heater gets heated and never enough to supply a good supply hot water."

The proof of the pudding is ALWAYS in the eating - and I will give it a shot and report back about how good the pudding was later.

 

[Herk]

And I'm sure that Sears employs experienced plumbers to answer their help lines. What a pile of BS. When the top thermostat reaches its set temperature, it switches to the bottom thermostat. The bottom thermostat is controlled by the temperature inside the tank at the lower level. If the water in the lower half of the tank is cold, it will be energized, and if the temperature in the lower part of the tank is raised, it will turn off.

So unless Sears has pulled another idiotic idea, they've given you bad advice.

And when you say you "strapped" the bottom element to 5000 I can't help but wonder if you didn't mess something up. Do you have an amp meter so you can check to see if it's actually pulling any juice once it switches over? 5000 should work fine with a 30 amp breaker and #10 wire.

Still, it sounds more like a problem with the dip tube to me.

 

[jgrimes227]

Well, it is probably my naivete - my son, who knows far less about all this than I do, immediatly said, "BS". We shall see. Yup, got a multmeter and an ammeter. After I got all the readings I should with my multimeter, I never got around to using the ammeter. Guess I'll go back and check with that as well. The Sears person was a young woman - but she said they had lots of calls like mine and readily admitted there was nothing in the manual about this "phenomenon". I just hate to keep putting my son through the no to very little hot water. Anyway, thanks for the response. PS there is almost nothing you can do to mess up the strapping to 5000 watts. Three screws, two with wires to them, place the strap between the yellow wire and the screw without a wire, tighten. done. (turn off the ckt breaker and turn it back on helps.)

 

[Herk]

I wasn't sure about the strapping because I don't remember it on older Sears heaters, and the newer fit-all elements don't have the capability - at least not the ones I got from Sears. The problem is that the threads on the element are larger than standard, and no plumbing supplier I know of stocks them.

4500 watt usually pulls 18+ amps. 18.2 to 18.6. I'd expect a little higher on the 500 watt.

It is my opinion that Sears put the lower wattage elements in those heaters because of too many homeowners having substandard wiring and problems with breakers. Too many old heaters are hooked up to 20 amp breakers and #12 wire.

Some of the old water heaters I run into have 750 and 1500 watt non-immersible elements. Those don't require the larger wire & breakers.

 

[Bob NH]

http://content.sears.com/shc/s/p_10...me=Water+Heaters&sName=Electric+Water+Heaters

Check the reviews on the 50 gallon unit, which I'm sure has the same control system. They are lousy reviews. It looks like they had a problem with older manufactured units.

It has only a 25 gallon per hour recovery at 240 Volts so if you have 220 Volts the recovery will be only about 21 gallons per hour. And when the upper element is heating you have even less recovery because of the 3800 Watt element. It is a lousy concept for an electric water heater that is notable for low recovery rate.

You should be able to turn the thermostats to the maximum and the overload should not trip. That will store more water for you but will not increase the recovery rate.

I would take advantage of Sears "satisfaction guaranteed" advertising and return the heater.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

http://content.sears.com/shc/s/p_10...me=Water+Heaters&sName=Electric+Water+Heaters

Check the reviews on the 50 gallon unit, which I'm sure has the same control system. They are lousy reviews. It looks like they had a problem with older manufactured units....................

...I would take advantage of Sears "satisfaction guaranteed" advertising and return the heater.

I think Whirlpool may have a new contender for worst heater.

 

[Redwood]

Doesn't whirlpool make the sears/kenmore water heaters?
I thinks they does!

 

[MACPLUMB]

New Water Heater



SEARS KENMORE MADE BY STATE INDS.

WHIRLPOOL MADE BY AMERICAN WATER HEATER

WHICH ARE BOTH OWNED BY A. O. SMITH WATER HEATER PRODUCTS


MACPLUMB 777

P. S, WHICH AT THIS TIME ARE OPERATED AS SEPERATED COMPANYS

 

[Redwood]

Its tough to keep track of all these companies who owns who and so on. At least the water heater companies are still making water heaters and haven't outsourced the manufacturing to south of the border and China.

 

[jgrimes227]

Sweet Jesus : can't manufacturers build anything anymore

Well, it looked like a fine water heater - at least Sears had all the info on it - other makes just made claims and had very little info on the heater itself. I did change the thermostats (upper down around the lowest setting 110 or so, and the lower element at 140 degrees). Made NO difference, as some of you so presciently told me. So, back to Sears - if they don't fix it - it goes back. At least using the unions was a good move. Can put a new unit in with no sweating to do. Thanks guys - will report back in a few days. Oh, in trying to find out more details about how a water heater works - it was very difficult - "howstuffworks.com" was nearly worthless. Wikipedia wasn't too bad. But still have yet to find one that give the whole scoop - such as the purpose of the installed one-way valve on the hot water side (assume it is some kind of one way valve, but may have something to do with pressure in the hot water side. And nothing on anykind of logic in the way the two heating elements work. Is there in fact a control that keeps both elements from working simultaneously?? Yeeesh. Will be picking the brains of the Tech when he/she gets there to fix this thing. I'm guessing it is the dip tube at this point. see ya later

 

[Jadnashua]

The heat traps, often sold with the WH, are designed to help minimize convective losses by preventing the hot water from moving out of the heater unless a valve is opened.