Softener, Just need some advice and help...

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Claybe

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Hello,
This is my first post like many others here. I am doing my best to understand everything but admit much is over my head so thanks to those geniuses who are able to help us all out!

I am on a well that is collapsed and have to capture about 700 gallons in storage tanks. I get about 50 gallons an hour out of the well. We have never run out of water, so that is good. I use a 4.5x20 big blue filter with pleated 20 micron filters. Then the water goes through the fleck 5600sxt and then to the faucets. We do not drink this water and only use it for dishes, showers and washing hands. I have an RO filter for ice. It is a cheap whirlpool model.

I will include my water test sheet and fleck order sheet below. Here are my current settings as advised by the company I bought it from :
DF GAL
VT dF1b
CT Fd
NT 1
C 48
H 30 (I originally had this at 17, but the guy said change it to 30 because of how much iron I have in the water. He said I did not need an iron filter.)
RS SF
SF 10
DO 7 ****changed this to 5 days and now need to Chang blue filter every 2-3 months.
RT 2:00am
BW 10
BD 60
RR 12
BF 14
FM t0.7

Hardness is 285.2 mg/L
Iron is 2.308 mg/L

It seems like the water is not very "soft" anymore. How do my settings look? Anything I can do to make the water more soft? Is there any other equipment I should consider for my system? I am considering upgrading my RO system. Anything else?

Also, is there such a thing as a digital soft water tester? I bought a TDS tester but only have the strips to test softness. It sure would be nice if there were a digital version to put an exact number to how soft the water is to see if the water softener is still working as it should.

Thanks for advice in advance!
Clay
 
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Reach4

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A TDS meter will not measure hardness.



Get a Hach 5-B test kit. It works better than strips.

You could try cleaning your softener. Look up old references to "iron out" using the search box above.
 

Bannerman

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You have a considerable amount of iron which would be more efficiently removed with a dedicated backwashing iron reduction filter located before the softener. The recommended iron reduction media is Katalox Light but there are also other options.

One current softener issue is the capacity 'C' is set far too high. The 'C' setting should more likely be 30 and in consideration of the iron exposure, 12-15 lbs of salt each regeneration cycle. With 'C' set to 30K grains and with 'H' set to 30 grains per gallon, then the softener will regenerate when no more than 1000 gals is consumed or 5 days with your current 'DO' setting, whichever is first.

You did not state the softener's BLFC number (usually indicated on a label near the brine fitting) or the number of persons in your home (to estimate water consumption). The BLFC number in gpm X 'BF' setting in minutes = the amount of water entering the brine tank. Each 1 gal will dissolve 3 lbs salt.

If the iron was removed before the softener, the salt needed for regeneration could be reduced to as low as 9 lbs per regen cycle, the hardness setting would be reduced, the DO setting could be extended and the need for the Rescare feeder would probably be eliminated.
 
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ditttohead

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Bummer about the well. 50 GPH should do fine for a residential application so long as you are not doing too much irrigation.

Iron reduction with a softener at 2+ ppm is not really recommended but considering the low pH it is not too bad.

Digital softener tests... don't bother. Just get the Hach 5B as suggested above. It is the test kit that every guy in the industry uses. Simple, reasonably priced and easily repeatable accurate results.

Get some citric acid and do a serious cleaning of the resin.

DF GAL
VT dF1b
CT Fd
NT 1
C 36
H 30 (I originally had this at 17, but the guy said change it to 30 because of how much iron I have in the water. He said I did not need an iron filter.)
RS rc
rc (60 x numeber of people in the house)
DO 7 ****changed this to 5 days and now need to Chang blue filter every 2-3 months. (are you referring to the bb filter?)
RT 2:00am
BW 10
BD 60
RR 10
BF 18-22 (assuming your brine refill is .25 gpm, blue sticker near the brine valve on the 5600SXT) tThis is set a little higher than normal to help clean the salt.
FM t0.7

These are just my opinion and I am sure someone will chime in saying I am way off... since these settings are considered highly variable, and there is more than one way to set a softener especially when using it for iron reduction, I am not claiming this is the only way or the best way, just one of many ways... luckily the old trolls on this site seemed to have moved on... :) Now most of the responses are well thought out, productive, and intelligent.

I have made some adjustments to your settings. The company that recommended your settings. If you have a .5 or black sticker, I can see that the company that sold you the unit is really cheating to get the system to work with iron. Doubling the salt usage to try to keep the resin clean... this is why most reputable companies will try to recommend iron reduction systems instead of massive oversalting. The wasteful use of salt not only cost extra money (I know salt is cheap...) but more importantly is the high tds waste. It goes somewhere, eventually into the water supplies. As an industry we should encourage wise uses of our resources. Dumping tons of salt unnecessarily into the ground water supplies is why so many regions ban softeners.
If you are going to have a BB, put a 5 micron or even a 1 micron filter in. If this clogs up quickly, pout two in, a 20/5, or 20/1.

Seriously consider getting a KL system. This unit will have some trouble at the low pH you have but a simple regenerant can be used to greatly increase its effectiveness. The KL system will also greatly reduce sediment and has a rating in the 3-5 micron range and is self cleaning.
 
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Claybe

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Thanks for the replies! There are 4 people in the house. 2 adults and 2 kids. The sticker near the brine valve is black and says .5 GPM 1.5 lb salt/min. Reading the instructions I saw that the salt tank should be filled to within 5 inches of the top. Is this true? It has not used much salt at all in the last few months. I had it filled all the way to the top and have been letting it go down for 2 months and this month it was finnally around 5 inches from the top so I still have not had to add any salt. It is definitely using salt but not too much. At least that is what it seems like. As for the katalox light iron filter, who makes these? Any units specifically I should be looking at? As for settings, does the info I listed here change anything? Thanks again!

Edit: yes I have a big blue filter. I am assuming that is what is referred to as a bb above? And, I have seen some self cleaning sediment filters that I would not need to use a replaceable filter with. Are these something I should look at? http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/rusco-sediment-trapper.html#item=MS007660&tab=tab1
 
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Claybe

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A TDS meter will not measure hardness.



Get a Hach 5-B test kit. It works better than strips.

You could try cleaning your softener. Look up old references to "iron out" using the search box above.


I have the rescare unit installed for this already. Should I still look into super iron out as well?

Thanks for the recommendation for the Hach kit. Just ordered it with a 5 micron filter for the bb filter.
 

Claybe

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Bummer about the well. 50 GPH should do fine for a residential application so long as you are not doing too much irrigation.

Iron reduction with a softener at 2+ ppm is not really recommended but considering the low pH it is not too bad.

Digital softener tests... don't bother. Just get the Hach 5B as suggested above. It is the test kit that every guy in the industry uses. Simple, reasonably priced and easily repeatable accurate results.

Get some citric acid and do a serious cleaning of the resin.

DF GAL
VT dF1b
CT Fd
NT 1
C 36
H 30 (I originally had this at 17, but the guy said change it to 30 because of how much iron I have in the water. He said I did not need an iron filter.)
RS rc
SF (60 x numeber of people in the house)
DO 7 ****changed this to 5 days and now need to Chang blue filter every 2-3 months. (are you referring to the bb filter?)
RT 2:00am
BW 10
BD 60
RR 10
BF 18-22 (assuming your brine refill is .25 gpm, blue sticker near the brine valve on the 5600SXT) tThis is set a little higher than normal to help clean the salt.
FM t0.7

These are just my opinion and I am sure someone will chime in saying I am way off... since these settings are considered highly variable, and there is more than one way to set a softener especially when using it for iron reduction, I am not claiming this is the only way or the best way, just one of many ways... luckily the old trolls on this site seemed to have moved on... :) Now most of the responses are well thought out, productive, and intelligent.

I have made some adjustments to your settings. The company that recommended your settings. If you have a .5 or black sticker, I can see that the company that sold you the unit is really cheating to get the system to work with iron. Doubling the salt usage to try to keep the resin clean... this is why most reputable companies will try to recommend iron reduction systems instead of massive oversalting. The wasteful use of salt not only cost extra money (I know salt is cheap...) but more importantly is the high tds waste. It goes somewhere, eventually into the water supplies. As an industry we should encourage wise uses of our resources. Dumping tons of salt unnecessarily into the ground water supplies is why so many regions ban softeners.
If you are going to have a BB, put a 5 micron or even a 1 micron filter in. If this clogs up quickly, pout two in, a 20/5, or 20/1.

Seriously consider getting a KL system. This unit will have some trouble at the low pH you have but a simple regenerant can be used to greatly increase its effectiveness. The KL system will also greatly reduce sediment and has a rating in the 3-5 micron range and is self cleaning.

Hey Ditto,
For the RS setting you put rc and then below it SF should be 60 x the amount of people in the house. Which should I use rc or SF? If SF did you mean 6 x the number of people in the house? I think the SF number only goes to 30. Or did you mean the rc should be 60 x the number of people in the house (4) so 240 for rc? Thanks!
 

Reach4

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Reading the instructions I saw that the salt tank should be filled to within 5 inches of the top. Is this true? It has not used much salt at all in the last few months.
Keep some salt above the water line. You can fill it up, or you can do as I do -- add a bag or two when my tilted salt level is close to not sticking up above water. I like to keep an eye on it, but that is not for most people.


Are these something I should look at?
Also see http://twistiiclean.com/ which are easier to clean.
 

ditttohead

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Hey Ditto,
For the RS setting you put rc and then below it SF should be 60 x the amount of people in the house. Which should I use rc or SF? If SF did you mean 6 x the number of people in the house? I think the SF number only goes to 30. Or did you mean the rc should be 60 x the number of people in the house (4) so 240 for rc? Thanks!


Cut/Paste error. :) Been working 14 hour days. You are correct. I edited my original post.
 

Claybe

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I set my BF to 20 will that work? Also ordered the twist II clean and will install before the bb.

Another question, should I filter the water before my holding tanks? I am pulling those tanks today to clean and sanitize as they are full of Clay and sediment. Any benefit to filtering before the holding tanks other than not having to clean them out once a year?

Also, I would like to get a fleck iron filter, what model should I be looking at?
 

Reach4

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Another question, should I filter the water before my holding tanks? I am pulling those tanks today to clean and sanitize as they are full of Clay and sediment.
Clay and fine sediment are hard to filter out without a filter that can clog. If the filter clogs on its way to the holding tank, the pump could burn out.

You could look into adding hydrogen peroxide to or before the first holding tank to precipitate out iron. If you got rid of the iron before the softener, you could drop your H.

Are the holding tanks hard to clean? Are they pressurized, or is there a separate pressure pump sending the water to the house?
 
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ditttohead

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I set my BF to 20 will that work? Also ordered the twist II clean and will install before the bb.

Another question, should I filter the water before my holding tanks? I am pulling those tanks today to clean and sanitize as they are full of Clay and sediment. Any benefit to filtering before the holding tanks other than not having to clean them out once a year?

Also, I would like to get a fleck iron filter, what model should I be looking at?


Since your BLFC is .5 (black sticker) the BF setting should be set to 9-11 minutes. This is usually not a variable setting but since you have iron a higher salt setting will help keep the resin clean.

PM sent.
 

Claybe

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Probably not.


Clay and fine sediment are hard to filter out without a filter that can clog. If the filter clogs on its way to the holding tank, the pump could burn out.

You could look into adding hydrogen peroxide to or before the first holding tank to precipitate out iron. If you got rid of the iron before the softener, you could drop your H.

Are the holding tanks hard to clean? Are they pressurized, or is there a separate pressure pump sending the water to the house?

Holding tanks are a bit of a pain to clean, but manageable. They are not pressurized. Yes, there is a pump that sends water to the house. Looking into an iron filter pre-softener.
 

ditttohead

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You have atmospheric tanks? I prefer the conical bottoms myself. Very easy to clean but they take up more room and cost a bit more.
upload_2017-2-11_10-49-43.png
 

Reach4

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Holding tanks are a bit of a pain to clean, but manageable. They are not pressurized. Yes, there is a pump that sends water to the house. Looking into an iron filter pre-softener.
Idea... If you can add hydrogen peroxide, you can probably get the iron to preciptate out. Initially you can do it by hand, and then consider adding a feeder later. Read up on that.

I wonder if some kind of electric above-ground pool cleaner would pick up your sediment.

That conical bottom tank looks like the real deal.
 

Claybe

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Idea... If you can add hydrogen peroxide, you can probably get the iron to preciptate out. Initially you can do it by hand, and then consider adding a feeder later. Read up on that.

I wonder if some kind of electric above-ground pool cleaner would pick up your sediment.

That conical bottom tank looks like the real deal.

Sorry I don't understand. Hydrogen peroxide will take Iron out? How much do you add to tanks to make this happen? How often? I will do a search on this as well.
 

Claybe

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What would happen if I put the twist to clean filter on the line from the well into the holding tanks to catch the big stuff before the holding tanks? Would this work?

Also, conceding cleaning the resin, I currently am using recare in an automatic dispenser. Should I be using Citric acid instead? Ban T?
 
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ditttohead

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H2o2 causes iron to precipitate from ferrous to ferric, meaning from a liquid state to a solid filterable state. It basically turns it into a rust particle that is easily filtered mechanically. Manganese dioxide ore based medias further this process ensuring almost complete removal.

You would add 1 ppm of h2o2 for every ppm of iron into the water . This can be done with a chemical injection pump. I prefer Stenner Peristaltic pumps. If the water is a known flow rate than a simple pump is fine. If the water flow varies then a controlled pump is required. A simple meter with electronic output is adequate tied into the electronic Stenner pump.

The twist @ Clean should be the first item in your system. It is a simple filter that catches any large debris.

We are working with a new filter that may be as good, possibly better than the Twist 2 Clean. Updates coming soon once it finishes testing in our facility.

The conical bottom tanks... any junk that falls out of the water simply exits the tank bottom instead of getting stuck on the bottom since the outlet on flat bottom tanks is usually a few inches off the bottom. Put a tee and a ball valve on the bottom and you can clean the tank with a pool brush and bleach or h2o2, and then completely drain the tank. No more weird sludge in the bottom...
 

Claybe

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So this next weekend I plan to change my set up. I think I am going to install the twist 2 clean before the big blue filter and filter the water before it gets to the holding tanks. I have never had a filter clog up and feel like having the twist clean will help. The holding tanks will be clean and the water I use outside will be filtered and my sprinkler system won't clog. I have looked into the iron filter but don't know that I can afford the $1k+ right now. So hopefully these minor tweaks will help the system. Hach test kid arrived today so I will test to see where I am at and report back.
 

Claybe

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Tested hardness tonight with the Hach kit and my tap water used 3 drops so 3 grains of hardness. How do I interpret this data? My RO filter took NO drops. What does all this mean?
 
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