Rough In

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urville

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My house is very old. 1928 build date. I am allowed only certain liberties. My spouse needs an ADA bowl height. Looks like I might have a 12" rough in toilet on an actual 14" rough in.

Rough in is 13.5 from baseboard. This would be 14" I believe. Current toilet is about 2" to 2.5" from wall.

Does it matter what I buy? These 14" rough ins can be way more expensive.
 

Gary Swart

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You have a 14" rough in. You need to understand that rough in requirements are not finite numbers. There is always some space left between tank and wall and that space will vary from model to model even in the same brand. Since 12" rough in is the standard, there are more toilets to chose from in that size, but there an option you might want to consider. Toto makes what they call a Unifit Adapter. This adapter fit just some of their models, but allows the same toilet to fit 10", 12" or 14". These do cost a bit more than some of their models, but they are very high quality performers and are skirted which is a feature many folks like. You can research these online. In addition to these, Toto has other models that have 14" rough in options. Check with local shops and get several prices for whatever model you opt for. Even though the shop may not stock Toto, they can order them. It is not wise to order a toilet online due to breakage problems.

crane-toilet-14-rough-01.jpg


Crane 14" rough toilet.
 

WJcandee

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Just so i can be 100% here. 12" on 14" RI is fine. straight, no adapter.

Absolutely. You just will have a gap between tank and wall that is larger than would be the case with the same toilet on a 12" rough-in. About 2" more, to be precise. If that's the situation you have now and you're cool with it, then no problem to just buy another 12" rough-in toilet. You measured from the baseboard to the center of the closet bolts, correct? (The actual rough-in distance is between the finished wall and the center of the closet bolts.
 

urville

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Yes! I had been reading and searching, so I felt like I had some kind of grasp. However, i could not find anyone stating, "Yes, this is okay".

That baseboard is just about 1/2 inch so it made sense to me that it was 14".

I also measured from the bolts tot the tip of the bowl. 16.5"
And from the bolts tot he back of the tank. Which was hard to gauge given the angles, but it appeared to be 10".
I was trying to determine what kind of toilet I had on that rough in.

The existing unit is a Crane from 97. Clogs all the time. That and the non ADA height necessitate the change.

Would you guys mind giving some insight into good brands. Trying to stay 150 or less. It's not my house so its like a donation toilet heh.

My choices local are:
haha Project Source - AquaSource - American Standard - Mansfield - Kohler
Sterling - Delta - Glacier Bay - Eljer - Tuscany
 

Gary Swart

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The best brand is Toto. You may never have heard the name, but Toto is the largest toilet maker in the world. They basically perfected the low flow toilets long before the well known brands did. The famous names are catching up, but Toto is still the premier. Local plumbing shops (not big box stores) may not stock Toto, but they can order them for you. Check the prices with several stores, none of them should charge list price. You can also check online with Toto to find the nearest Toto dealer. I believe I mentioned in my earlier post that you should avoid ordering online. Breakage is a real problem with toilets and although you can get a broken toilet replaced, it does require a lot of hassle with UPS and the dealer. Nothing wrong with look online at models and to get a ballpark idea on prices.
 

Gary Swart

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The best brand is Toto. You may never have heard the name, but Toto is the largest toilet maker in the world. They basically perfected the low flow toilets long before the well known brands did. The famous names are catching up, but Toto is still the premier. Local plumbing shops (not big box stores) may not stock Toto, but they can order them for you. Check the prices with several stores, none of them should charge list price. You can also check online with Toto to find the nearest Toto dealer. I believe I mentioned in my earlier post that you should avoid ordering online. Breakage is a real problem with toilets and although you can get a broken toilet replaced, it does require a lot of hassle with UPS and the dealer. Nothing wrong with look online at models and to get a ballpark idea on prices. Don't be mislead by the "Adapter" term. This is not some kind of add on gizmo. It does install a bit differently, but you end up with a very nice installation. The Unifit adapter will only work on specifics Toto models, it is NOT a universal-fits-em-all device. This would make your new toilet fit without that big space between the tank and wall. Do yourself a favor a research a bit before you go out and buy a cheap builder grade toilet that might very well not work any better than your old Crane, and look like a mistake. Toto also makes 14" rough in toilets with the conventional style installation.
 

urville

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I looked only at the big box stores in my area. I will try local plumbers, but where I live, I expect the prices to be 2 or 3 times higher knowing Cheyenne, heh.

Well the problem is cost. I'm just not going to go much higher for a toilet they should be replacing and I have to leave behind. It's a rental.

When I looked at adapters earlier they were nearly $50 by themselves, and the 14" toilets didnt go below $239.

I cant afford that anyway, and dont want to leave that much behind either, you know what I mean?
 
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Reach4

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Cadet-PRO-Compact-Right-Height-Elongated-14-Rough-In-Toilet
price on that page is list price.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-W...-Elongated-Toilet-in-White-K-3948-0/205022186 Don't know how good it works, but it would appear to have a visible trapway without right angles.

Check dimensions. Some 14 inch rough toilets stick out into the bathroom the same as if you used a 12 inch rough; they just have a tank that is thicker from the wall.
 
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urville

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Holy cow, that's 2-2.5 times what I have for this...

I went to Toto, the nearest place for "parts" is in the next state.
 

Jadnashua

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Holy cow, thats 2-2.5 times what i have for this...

I went to Toto, the nearest place for "parts" is in the next state.
Most of the TOTO toilets use repair parts commonly available everywhere, so that's not an issue. It's only if you get into those with dual flush or their really fancy electronically controlled lines where parts are more likely to be special and maybe harder to find, depending on where you live. There are three things to consider: price, quality, and repair parts. The quality on some brands tends to be spotty...get a good one, and no issues, get a flaky one, and at the least, it's extra time going back to the store to exchange it to try again. IF you're paying someone to install or you value your time, that can make an inexpensive toilet end up costing more than one less likely to be defective. If a plumber supplies the toilet and it's defective, he'll replace it on his nickel...if you supply the toilet and it's defective, you get to pay his labor twice to reinstall another one.
 

FullySprinklered

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I wouldn't put a Toto in a rental and leave it there. The Glacier Bay or Delta will do the job just fine. I've had trouble with Crane, Eljer, and I hate the American Standard roulette wheel in the house I'm renting now. I would choose Toto for my new place I'm remodeling right now.
 

urville

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I can install it, thats easy.

Well according to the site, no one local sells them is what I was saying. I checked on the Toto site and I would have to go to another state.
 

WJcandee

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Since price is an important consideration, and it's a rental and you're going to leave it behind, I have a suggestion. One that I wouldn't otherwise make. But it's based on personal experience and I'm gonna tell you like it is.

I just helped a friend put this in her bar, like a few weeks ago: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Glacier-...cy-Elongated-Toilet-in-White-N2428E/204074796 I think it might be perfect for you. It works well, and it's the higher-height.

I had to drive to another Home Depot because they didn't have it in my nearest store (and it doesn't even show up as an option on the screen if it isn't in the local store). It's one of those "complete" kits, where the seat is kind of cheap and the wax ring they give you isn't going to be thick enough unless you have a flange that is at the perfect height and the closet bolt set is kind of cheap.

But for $98, I have been impressed. She didn't want to spend a lot of money because the last one lasted less than a year before someone smashed it. The last one was the previous version of this model, and because they sell whatever comes in from the container from China or wherever, the product had changed so I had to replace the whole toilet rather than just the tank which was smashed; the tank and bowl bolts weren't in even close to the same place. But, again, $98 is cheap enough that we really didn't care.

Here's my take on it: It flushes remarkably-well and has decent bowl wash. The trapway design appears to be decent, as it quietly and effectively sucks the waste from the bowl. The fit and finish on the one that I bought was perfectly-acceptable, and the quality and thickness of the china was more than I would expect for $99. The guts in the tank (meaning the fill valve and flapper) are decent enough. (Remember to read the instructions, which will tell you things like to remove the little rubber band they put on the flapper to keep it from, well, flapping, during transport.) I'm not a fan of that fill valve in her application, where it gets flushed a lot every day, because I think it's going to wear out pretty fast, but a more robust fill valve is like $10 at Home Depot, so who cares. We can replace it in two minutes if and when it quits, and so far it's fine. (The earlier one had a Fluidmaster 400A in it, which is a decent, common one used in the business. Or maybe the contractor who installed it had the same reaction that I did and swapped out the fill valve preemptively...I don't know.) The toilet will happily take standard fill valves and flappers from Korky or another good manufacturer, so when and if you need a new one of either, you can get it at Lowe's or Home Depot or your local hardware store or online.

As far as ease of installation, the tank-to-bowl bolts were already installed and set up to be double-nutted, which is the correct way to do it. (I.e. rubber washer inside the tank, nut and metal washer securing the bolt to the outside of the tank; you leave them alone and put the bolt through the base and secure it with the second metal washer and second nut from the little plastic bag they give you.) The base required a little shimming in the rear so it didn't rock, but I think that was a function of the floor more than the build of the toilet. Attaching the tank to the base was standard, and by tightening down with the proper-size deep ratchet, a little on each side, back and forth until just before the porcelain touched, I got that tank on nice and tight with no rocking on the first try. The design under the bowl is such that you really want to use a ratchet and not try to use pliers, because it's not easy to get in there and turn with them.

For your rental home, I think it should all work perfectly-well. You really can't go wrong with this, and you likely will be very happy with it.

You might want to swap the seat from your old Crane if you like it, or put $20-ish towards a nice Mayfair or Bemis seat. The holes for the seat bolts are in a standard setup, so it will take any standard seat from any manufacturer. But try out the one that comes with it first; it seems kind of flimsy but it's perfectly-comfortable. And it hasn't broken yet in the bar's abusive environment. You will probably also need at least one more wax ring (they are stackable) or an extra-thick one. (We recommend if you're stacking that you use at most one with the little plastic spigot in it and the rest without; put the one with the spigot on the top because it holds itself in place a little better.) But maybe you will luck out and your flange will be at the perfect height.

If you're installing it yourself, you might think about this Korky waxless seal, which means that you won't usually need to stack the seals and more importantly if you want to pull the bowl back up to realign it or shim it or something, you won't have to scrape off the wax and go get a couple more wax rings. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Korky-WaxFREE-Seal-Kit-6000BM/205616926 The Sani-Seal is also good, but you may need two if your flange top is lower than the floor level.

You also want to caulk around the bowl, either all the way around or leaving the back open and caulking 3 sides. We recommend a little tube of Polyseamseal for this; it comes up cleaner than standard waterproof caulk. You can put a nice thick bead around the base, really getting it in the crack, and then smooth with the little finger tool or something with an edge on it, for a nice-looking installation.

Given that the last one was working just fine before somebody smashed it, and this one has worked very well for over a month, with no clogging that I'm aware of, in a pretty-demanding application, I can tell you that it's going to be a big improvement over your Crane and a good value.

And it looks nice. So that would be my recommendation for your application. If you were going to keep it longer in a purchased home, I would recommend one that's a little more expensive that you might be happier with for a longer run, but I would feel dumb spending the extra money and then leaving it behind. (As to longevity of quality porcelain, we have one toilet from 1927 and a couple from the mid-50s that still look nice and work fine, albeit at the expense of extra water usage; if we were in an area were drought were a factor, I would replace them on principle, but we're not. We had three that did need to be replaced at various times in the past few years, the most-used ones, and I put in three Totos, which should last decades.)

In the end, I really can say from direct personal experience, that that particular Glacier Bay is a fine toilet for the price, and candidly a nice toilet at any price.
 
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WJcandee

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I can install it, thats easy.

Well according to the site, no one local sells them is what I was saying. I checked on the Toto site and I would have to go to another state.

For what it's worth, the local plumbing supply places can virtually-always order it, whether they advertise or display Toto or not. The local plumbers buy their stuff there and if one of their customers wants a Toto, the local guy is going to get it for them. It's not a big deal to get from their distributor. The Toto web site generally just names dealers, many of whom will charge close to list, so it's useless. If you do a little research online, you will see that the street price is way less than list. You can use Terry's prices in his shopping section above as a decent guide to what's fair. If you call the local plumbing supply (just look in the Yellow Pages, which most people don't use anymore but which is excellent for this) with the model number and color (usually cotton white), and tell them that you're ready to buy one today if the price is good, you may make out well. We usually recommend that you try the five closest ones in the yellow pages, because prices, service and (particularly) attitude seem to vary widely from store to store, even in the same town, and this seems to be true all over the US. If you like the Entrada, the model is CST244EF for the elongated bowl version (which you want). Cotton White is color #01.
 
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urville

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Super Helpful and I thank you. I truly appreciate it, and frankly everyone who has chimed in!
I am calling around this morning but considering the Galcier Bay too... Maybe I should tell them i will take the toilet when i leave and thats that.

We'll see.

Fun Fact:
In the upstairs of this house the rough in is 16.25 inches from the actual wall, which is plaster and only .5 or so thick.
The tank sits 6-6.5 inches from the wall
Haha
 

urville

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One wont answer the phone ever, one is 386.72, and the other one wont sell to me without an account and then didnt have time to do an account at this time.

BUT,
I found this, and it says they resend it on their dime if it shows up damaged.
For $221.63 About 73.00 in shipping in that price
https://www.plumbersstock.com/toto-...n-white.html?gclid=CP6ouIXBx8cCFVSSfgodPdkLDg

Or this one, same deal:
For $192.00 Free Shipping
http://www.nationalbuildersupply.com/toto-entrada-elongated-toilet-cst244ef-01-cotton-white/p486536


Sure wish i had a Pro Account at NBS, ahaha
 

WJcandee

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We generally don't recommend buying online for a variety of reasons, one of which is that it's not unusual for them to arrive damaged. That said, the owner of NBS is one of the largest distributors of Toto in the US (to all sales channels, not just online).
 
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