Restoring an old deep well-many mysteries

[Raucina]

I have aquired an old gold mining property on a steep hillside that has what appears to have been a good well. No action in 30 years.There is little information available except that hung in the hole is a Jaquizzi 1.5 hp 2 wire pump. Owner says its 650' deep. Believes the static water level is 160'. GPM of well unknown. Pumping water level unknown. depth of casing unknown

Pump will not start, locked up. Assuming the well is not caved, and I pull it all out, how would you choose a pump? Would you drop a temp pump a few hundred feet and see if you can pull the water down to that level? Seems like too much work. I am used to new wells with logbooks available.

Set the pump at 5 or 600' and size it for some guestimate pumping level?

Use a low water shut off if you guessed wrong? Assume the previous pump guy new more and match his pump?

I will install a 3000g tank about 50psi worth up the hill so there need not be any issues of valves, pressure tanks and etc. - just a float valve. We are talking basic residential use here.

The neighbors wells dont reveal much, one can be 75' and the next 400' . There are so many old tunnels in these mountains that its not too unusual to drill into one.

The Grundfos rigs look nice [?] - soft start, variable, 3" diameter - 600$ on E-bay....What brand pump would you use in such a deep hole?

 

[Cass]

Not a well guy but 600' is a long way up. I am going to guess that you may need a 2 pump system, but what do I know. Have you checked to see if there is still water in the well and if there is how many feet of water. I would check that first B4 buying anything. Lots of things can change in 30 years including water levels.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

650' is no problem for one pump. 1.5 hp is only going to put out 4.5 gpm from 650'. If the water level stays high, you might get 7 or 8 gpm. If it pumps the well dry, use a cycle sensor or pump tec to shut down and time out before restart. Grundfos is good but i don't like the 3 inch pumps, 10,000 plus in rpm and the soft start won't start if you have a little grit. Use the 4 inch 5s15-31 or 26 in grundfos. Deep well, long rise to elevated tank, real water hammer potential. Use the check in the grundfos pump, don't add another check anywhere. Can save a long run of wire to tank by using a pressure tank and switch at well. Then use the floats in the elevated tank to open and close a solenoid or sprinkler valve as elevated tank requires.

 

[Speedbump]

I would use a pump comperable to what is in there. That is if your sure a driller or pumpman put it in. If it was done by a weekend warrior, I would re think the whole thing and use Valvemans suggestion.

bob...

 

[Rancher]

Water Quality

I would have the water tested, wells in mining districts are normally polluted, Tombstone AZ, which is an old mining town pipes it's water from 30 miles away in the mountains.

Rancher

 

[Raucina]

One well I used to have in the area indeed had higher arsenic levels. I have always wanted to test some wells - does anyone have a place to do a heavy metal and coli tests at decent rates?

The 10,000 to 6,000 rpm sounded scary to me also - but other elements of the Grundfos pump seem very good - its obviously a very highly thought out piece of machinery.

Not a weekend warrior job - I think they drop out around 200'. Put in by an old school well driller now in his own peaceful 6' shallow eternal well. I think I will use his pump as the guideline. Probably galvanized pipe in the hole. I will opt for a 3 wire pump however...

It seems to me that the more check valves in the line, the less of any hammer potential - dividing the flow reversal into smaller segments... What am I missing here?

Any favorite sort of pipe for this deep job?

Thanks for the input...

 

[Speedbump]

Two wire motors have been proven to last longer and are far easier to install. Plus you save buying one wire from pressure switch to motor. With the price of copper wire these days, that in itself is a savings.

bob...

 

[Speedbump]

I've never lived in an area where sand was a major problem. We have a few well drillers that seemed to drill more sandy wells than others, but it was rare. If I did have that problem, the three wire might be better because of the starting torque. But the Biac switch on the two wire motor is supposed to rock the motor in both directions to free the impellers. So I'm not so sure the three wire would be better.

I guess it's all what your used to.

 

[Raucina]

Never had a 2 wire pump until this old one - and it is locked up, granted after a 30 year sleep underwater. My meter shows no signs of any biac activity, assuming this shift would make a bump in the amp draw... Is this a certainty, this back and forth motion?

Also it looks like the three wire pumps give much longer wire runs to pump than 2 wire of a same HP - so maybe its a wash with the copper...

Everyone seems to use the schedule 80 pvc with SS fittings now around here.

On another hand its a great spot for a windmill. Anyone had experience with 500' of pipe under a mill? How long between piston - leather pulls?

 

[Speedbump]

If you look at the Franklin wire table, it does not diferentiate between two or three wire motors for cable lengths.

The biac switch works so fast, I doubt you would see it on an amp meter. All you see is locked rotor amps. About 5 times the running amps.

We use SCH80 with male thread on one end and female on the other.

The windmill can't lift water that far. They poop out at around 200 feet. Unless you do some gearing which would slow down the gpm a bunch.

bob...

 

[vaplumber]

If you look at the Franklin wire table, it does not diferentiate between two or three wire motors for cable lengths.

* I agree with this but I disagree also. If you use simple logic, a 2 wire motor does last longer but all of the starting components which draw heavy amps are 600' down the well. A 3 wire pump splits the heavy draw components between a box at the top of the well so you can forget the excess amp draw and voltage loss of the total diff minus 600 feet to the pump. I would go with a 3 wire motor at this depth and forget the 20 year plus bragging rights of pump life.


The biac switch works so fast, I doubt you would see it on an amp meter. All you see is locked rotor amps. About 5 times the running amps.

* I also agree and disagree with this. An anolog meter would not show the diff because of the rapid speed of the biac but use a proffesional digital meter and you will notoce that the meter will never settle on a stable reading with a 2 wire motor that will not start.


We use SCH80 with male thread on one end and female on the other.
The windmill can't lift water that far. They poop out at around 200 feet. Unless you do some gearing which would slow down the gpm a bunch.

* I would use steel galv pipe, and from experience you might as well forget the windmill completely at this depth.
bob...[/QUOTE]

 

[Raucina]

About wire size- Control box to pump on myers submersibles [franklin motors]
Have unusually LONG runs for the gauge size - far smaller wires with longer runs than you would get from a standard wire sizing chart.

However the 2 wire and three wire match in wire gauge for panel to pump [2 wire] and panel to CONTROL BOX [3 wire.] So it seems by keeping the capacitor up in the air, one saves on wire by generating the starting jolt on the surface.

 

[Speedbump]

There is no jolt in a two wire motor. It is simply the start winding being engaged without a capacitor in tow. It is de-energized when the motor gets up to speed where the run winding can take over.

 

[Bob NH]

"I will install a 3000g tank about 50psi worth up the hill so there need not be any issues of valves, pressure tanks and etc. - just a float valve. We are talking basic residential use here."

With a float valve to control the 3000 gallon tank, you will need a pressure tank and pressure switch in the line. Otherwise, it will cycle the pump on and off as the valve approaches the closed condition.

A better solution is a float switch with a relay or contactor at the well head or control point. You can use a low voltage line, such as 24 VAC from a transformer.

I have also used a solid state relay actuated by a 9 VDC wall wart and a float switch to operate a contactor. That will work with very small wire.

 

[Raucina]

Yes, the electric float is what I had in mind with a signal circuit. What I would like to try is a radio- wireless signal from the float swich to the pump contactor. I was thinking of modifying one of these "driveway alert" things to notify the pump of the call for water. Anyone know of a radio switch that would eliminate the need for wires and conduit in this area of hungry wild animals and difficult access? 500' should be about enough signal distance.

Furthermore, my driller says look for a "clay" valve - vacuum actuated that needs no wires and gives a large drawdown that is somewhat adjustable. Sounds great but have not found much information.

 

[Speedbump]

your going to hate this!

A cla val is a very expensive Cycle Stop Valve if I'm not mistaken. Not nearly as adjustable as the Cycle Stop Valve though.

bob...

 

[Bob NH]

A wireless system would still require electricity at the tank.

Here is an invention for you.

Use a float valve at the 3000 gallon tank, and a pressure switch but no tank at the well head. When the valve closes, the pressure switch will open, but will close again as soon as the pressure drops.

Install a time delay relay to operate a contactor so that the pump will not start until some time has elapsed, such as an hour or more. That will prevent cycling when the valve is nearly closed. You could have a manual pushbutton to start the pump immediately.

The pressure switch has to be set high enough to stay closed with the pressure drop in the pipe, but open when the valve closes and cuts down the flow. It also has to be set high enough to stay closed against any starting surge.

Requires no wires or power at the tank. The system checks at intervals to see if water is needed at the tank and stays on as long as needed to fill the tank.

 

[Raucina]

Thanks for the ideas - looks like no perfect solution. What I want is a predictable drawdown, and no wires to the tank. Seems to me the solution is a mechanical float valve with a delay opening device.

In other words, the float remains in the up position until the water level drops a foot or three. Then, "something" - another float? triggers the release of the main float arm - which had been held closed by some sort of latch or device. I know this is viable, but I cannot come up with a ready made product or parts to assemble my idea. Anyone done this?

This is similiar to bobnh's idea but without the time delay relays.

Finally, would I not get some water hammer at the pressure switch when the valve opens and closes [thus cycling] and require a small 5 gallon tank there in any case?

 

[Bob NH]

Here is what I had in mind:

First, use a standard float valve. I have used the ones in the Grainger catalog.

Put a pressure switch at the pump, but not at the tank. The pressure switch should have a STOP setting higher than when pumping with an open valve, but less than the capability of the pump. The START setting of the switch should be higher than the static pressure in the pipe with no flow.

1. The valve in the tank will be fully open when the level is low, but will throttle and eventually close. However, as it throttles and is nearly closed, it will develop enough pressure in the pipe to cause the pressure switch to open.

2. As the pressure switch opens and the pump shuts off, the pressure will drop and the pressure switch will now close, if the ON setting is greater than the static pressure in the pipe.

3. The pressure switch is connected to the coil or start contact of an ON DELAY relay, which is a relay that will not close its output contact until the ON DELAY time setting is expired. For sake of discussion, let's say it is one hour.

4. After the ON DELAY has expired, it will turn the pump on. This is effectively checking to see if the tank is full.

5. If the tank is nearly full, it will turn off almost immediately and will start the cycle again at Step 2.

6. If the tank is not full, it will pump until the tank is full (valve closes) which causes the pressure switch to open and restart the cycle at Step 2.

 

[Raucina]

Thanks - I see that and I see the simplicity of it, but it does not give a predictable draw down of say, 1/3 of the tank volume. If the delay is set for several hours or days perhaps, to achieve that, then upon heavy use water might not be in the tank. A standard float valve will open with just an inch or so of draw down, so if we use the hour delay setting, and there is any use at all, then we will have a pump cycling every hour at a short cycle.

I would use your "system" but with a standard float valve [talking about a float on an arm working a valve stem] that somehow had its own "time delay" mechanism of a mechanical nature that would not allow it to open until there was a larger drop in the water level. Thus the drawdown and pump run time would be predictable as it is not with a on delay relay.

My challenge to the pump guys is to describe a system to mechanically [and predictably] delay the opening of a float valve without any electric parts. If valveguy suddenly shows up on the market with one, I expect some royalty payments.... "CDV" -cycle delay valve? Race you to the patent office.