Pump Loses Pressure When Faucet is On!

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by StevenW1969, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. StevenW1969

    StevenW1969 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Muskegon, MI
    Hi all I'm new too the forums. I just bought an old home. It was originally owned by an old couple who built the house in 1948. As of 5 years ago the husband died, then the wife was taken to a retirement home. The grandson of these folks bought the house and trashed it then lost it because he couldn't make the payments. The house was vacant for 9 months. All the plumbing in the house froze at one point and shattered (white PVC). I found the pump well in the front yard it is in a round brick walled hole that was about 36 inches deep. The well hole has a 3-piece cement cover. It had a sand floor which had roots and junk in the bottom of it, so I dug it out to about 46 inches deep and filled it with about 4 inches of dolomite so it somewhat of a solid bottom to it and still drain if it gets wet. The pump itself is a 115 volt shallow well pump it was in the hole when I opened the well for the 1st time. The power to the well was run underground with the water main to the house with a breaker switch for the on and off. This was a pain in the butt so so I added a 30 amp disconnect in the well hole mounted to the cement wall with a vapor proof whip connected to the pump. That corrected the electrical issue. So then I tried to prime the pump which did not take much effort. The problem I found was that the pump would only hold pressure if the pressure relief faucet was closed (the gate valve to the house was in the closed position). The pump will only pump up to 15 lbs ± 5 lbs. Then when I open the pressure relief faucet that I had a garden hose hooked too and run out the yard away from the well hole to keep the moisture out of the well hole. When the faucet is closed it holds the higher pressure but as soon as it was opened it went right to zero. The pump has a 7 gallon bladder tank under it so I checked the air pressure and it was set at 13 pounds. I figured the bladder was ruptured so I filled it to 40 lbs and checked for leaks it sounds hollow on one end and water filled on the other so I ruled the tank was just low on air. I read online somewhere that for the size home and number of water faucets the 7 gallon bladder was way too small so I bought 30 gallon tank and re-plumbed all the pipes from the output of pump to the line going into the house. I used 3/4 PEX for the new tank install. I have added photo's of my work. After adding the the larger bladder tank into the system I only get 40 lbs of line pressure and it drops to nothing once I open the valve. Same issue but I did notice that the new bladder tank doesn't have any water in it it is empty even after I run water thru the system. The bladder tank is setting lower than the pump and the house line but is because I had drop it a few inches so it inside the well hole as it is quite tall. I did add a second check valve coming out of the pump, I figured the well head had one but there should be one after the pump also. I did add a new faucet and a new gate valve to the house when I re-plumbed.

    Now that you know all that I know and you are totally confused by my poor explanation. I'm hoping that you can help me and figure out why the well won't build pressure. Below are also a couple videos I posted on YouTube that might give a better description of my setup.

    [video=youtube_share;ZAox8tSYcac]http://youtu.be/ZAox8tSYcac[/video]

    [video=youtube_share;8XySsE4MEus]http://youtu.be/8XySsE4MEus[/video]

    Attached Files:

  2. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,249
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    The first thing you need to realize is the pump is the only thing in the system that makes pressure. If the pump can only produce 15 lbs of pressure, it cannot overcome the pressure of the air in the tank, and you will have no water.
    The air pressure in the tank cannot be greater than what water pressure the pump can produce.
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,054
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    When the pressure is at or below the air precharge on the bladder, the tank will not have any water in it, just air. That is how a bladder tank works.

    A jet pump uses pressure to make more pressure and volume. For that reason it is slow out of the starting blocks and will slow down if/when you draw the water faster than it can produce it. If the jet orifice gets plugged, it essentially will work as a low pressure/low volume impeller pump.
  4. StevenW1969

    StevenW1969 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Muskegon, MI
    Ok Fella's I'm on my way to the local hardware they have a Simer model 3107P. Here are the specs. Let me know if you think this is fine. The tech at the Water filtration company told me I need 8.5 GPM at the filter in the house for the backwash feature on the iron filter.

    BODY CONSTRUCTION: Thermoplastic
    HORSEPOWER: 3/4 HP
    MAXIMUM CAPACITY: 10.3 GPM
    FLOW AT 10' LIFT AND 40 PSI: 9.7 GPM
    MAX LIFT: 25'
    MAXIMUM SHUT-OFF PRESSURE: 78 PSI
    MAXIMUM INLET PRESSURE: 22 PSI
    PRESSURE SWITCH SETTINGS: 30-50 PSI
    SUCTION SIZE: 1-1/4" NPT (female)
    DISCHARGE SIZE: 1" NPT (female)
    AMP DRAW (full load): 6.1 amps on 230v / 12.2 amps on 115v
    VOLTAGE: 230v/115v AC, 60 Hz (factory pre-set to 230v)
    RECOMMENDED BREAKER: 15 am on 230v / 20 amp on 115v
    MAXIMUM WATER TEMPERATURE: 140 °F ,,,/,,(60 °C)
  5. StevenW1969

    StevenW1969 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Muskegon, MI
    I'm back fella's after a lot of wrench throwing and head scratching. I installed the new pump and removed the 7 gallon tank. That did not fix the problem so I figured the well point was plugged, so I invented my own point puller with a couple of 4" x 6" x 8' treated post. I laid them cross the well pit, grabbed 10' of 5/16 chain and my 3-ton hydraulic floor jack. This worked like a charm and I had the point out in less than an hour. The very old 3' point was so plugged I do not see how any water made it to the top. It was replaced with a 5' stainless steel point and all new drive couplings. I cleaned all the joints with a wire wheel and scrubbed the pipes inside and out so they had no debris in them. Teflon taped the threads installed the new couplings and drove it back down the same hole. The pipe sections consist of a 5' point, 10' , 8' with 18" sticking out of the ground. I tried to drive the point a bit deeper with an additional 5' pipe I bought but i hit something hard and the point would go no further so I stopped. hooked up my pitcher hand pump primed it and sucked the nasty stuff out of the pipe so it did not get into my new electric pump. After reading and rereading all the instruction books for the water tank and the new pump, I realized the tank pressure needs to be 1-2 lbs under the cut on pressure. Now the tank is filling up with water and the pump produces alot of water with a 30/50 lb on off.

    Now I have to figure how to check the volume of water coming out at the pump. I was thinking of putting 3 - 5 gallon buckets next to each other and get a 1" hose which is the same size as the output of the pump and use a stop watch to see how much I can fill in one minute. That should give me my Gallons per Minute. Does anyone have anything to add, maybe some advice or maybe something I may have done wrong. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  6. StevenW1969

    StevenW1969 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Muskegon, MI
    Ok Guys I had a meltdown, I did not know the pump was not waterproof. We had a hell of a thunderstorm and the pump motor got drenched and it smoked the motor. I have since covered the well with a blue tarp and have began to build a little square cover with angled peak and shingles to keep the moisture out of the pit. I also realized the pump was too small for what I need at the Iron filter I need to install. These are the new specs.

    Simer Model No. 3110-P10 Shallow Well Jet pump 1HP 115/230V

    Maximum pumping capacity to 16.4 gallons per minute
    Flow at 10 feet and 40 PSI: 16.1 gallons per minute
    Dual voltage motor, 230/115 volt, is preset to 230v (Mine is set to 115V)
    Maximum shutoff pressure of 67 PSI
    30-50 pressure switch Mine is set to (35-55)

    I also have some new pictures of the plumbing configuration. I have used 3/4 pex, will this hinder my flow to get the 8.5 GPM to the iron filter in the house? What I have not changed yet is the line from the house to the Pump. I was going to dig a trench to my garage, lay Ø2" watertite non-metallic conduit which I can then snake the pex tubing into out to the well pump. My thought was that if the 3/4 pex was not big enough I could replace it with 1" without having to re digging the trench.(I hate digging).

    The garage is kept at about 47°F all winter just warm enough to keep the snow melted of my cars and keep stuff in the garage from being frozen like my paints and other stuff. I will filter the water with the Iron Filter then it will go thru a Water Softener and then into the house to the Manabloc Manifold which will distribute it to the tankless Hotwater heater and other faucets ect. ect.

    Also I added a second Check Valve after the pump but before the bladder tank, I read somewhere that these help with the hammering you get with some plumbing systems. This also why I went to pex because it is supposed to help eliminate the hammering sounds you get with some systems.

    I really need some direction here guys if anyone has any input that would help me get it right the 1st time.

    I would be forever in your debt.

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    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
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