Pressure switch problem or something else???

[Bob NH]

No water treatment exists at the moment. We have been using this lake water for over 20 years and get our drinking water from country club golf well. Our lake water is tested many times during the year by association and has never had any problems yet.

I was planning to make my well water primary and lake secondary (backup), but after testing my well water and if I need to install some type of filter system or chlrone system and will revers my decision and make my well the secondary (backup) source of water.

Sergio

I design and build systems for using lake water as small public water supplies. The systems have to meet US EPA Surface Water Treatment Rule requirements and be approved by the state.

I have built systems for 500 to 20,000 gallons per day. They are completely automated. You have to keep the chlorinator supplied and change the filters every few months.

The systems consist of cartridge filters and disinfection.

Good well water is the preferred solution but if it requires extensive treatment to make the well water good you can safely use good lake water.

Lake water is almost always free of iron, manganese, hardness, arsenic, radon and other things often found in wells.

If you have a good lake supply you can water your lawn with untreated water and treat only the household water that is usually less than 300 gallons per day.

Where are you located? How big is the lake?

 

[Gary Slusser]

1. How is the pump protected from sucking up stuff it shouldn't (Gary)
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When installed, well plumber build a stand (3 legs on outside) and in middle it had about 4' to 6' of 4" ABS. The whole package is built out of 4" ABS, and the submersible motor/pump is installed in 4" middle ABS pipe. No scuba diver was used, he simply released ABS stand with pump + wires 30ft into lake with use of boat. I have a rope attached to my water dock for when it needs to be ever lifted from bottom of lake for maint.

Submersible pumps are usually 3 7/8" Dia. So one in a 4" ID pipe does not have much room and should be easily blocked up with lake stuff.

2. Any water treatment? (Gary)
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No water treatment exists at the moment. We have been using this lake water for over 20 years and get our drinking water from country club golf well. Our lake water is tested many times during the year by association and has never had any problems yet.

IMO all surface water should be tested quarterly, and there is now way you can pump it through your household plumbing and not ingest some of it or not be contaminated unless you disinfect the plumbing before use.

If you guys ask why then did you get a well???? Well I really thought it would be nice to have my own source of drinking water without going to golf club and fill jugs every week. I soon realized that the well today has more challenges than my current lake water.

See about disinfecting above.

I've treated a fair share of lake and river water and the equipment used is about the same as treating iron and such in well water. The money you've put in the lake system would be about the same amount had you treated the well water. Better yet, not drilled a well and treated the lake water.

You can't use well water in it to water things without getting rust stains everywhere.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[SergioMastro]

Well is up and running

Ok guys, here is the udpate.

1. I shut off my lake pump power source
2. I used T Key to remove blueline from well casing
3. I pulled about 20ft of blueline out of well casing
4. I Started power source to well pump
5. I forced pressure switch with piece of wood to always give power to well pump
6. I bled well water for 4hrs
7. After satisfied with visual view of water, I turned power source to well pump off
8. Dropped blueline and connected adapter to pitless adapter on well casing
9. Drained / emptied all lake water still in house plumbing
10. Started well pump (not sure if this will be my primary or secondary/backup option)

This will give me some time to analyze lake pump problem with less pressure.

Well water will also be tested at local lab. This will give me options.

Our lake is tested 4 times every year and results are shared with community.

I attached some pictures of todays advancement!

Take care and thanks for all the pointers provided.
Sergio

 

[SergioMastro]

no mixing intended, just a backup source

Lake water and well water mixing?

Redwood, no mixing intended, I have proper check valves on each line to prevent mixing.

I'm looking into what Gary mentioned regarding the use of a <<double back flow prevention device>> which is a double check valve.

I wanted to put a manual balljoint valve, but plumber convinced me to never put a manual valve on main line before reservoir. Someone can accidentally shut valve and burn motor/pump. I thought these checks are built-in the motor/pump systems.

Take care..
Sergio

 

[SergioMastro]

Good well water is the preferred solution but if it requires extensive treatment to make the well water good you can safely use good lake water.

Lake water is almost always free of iron, manganese, hardness, arsenic, radon and other things often found in wells.

Where are you located? How big is the lake?

Bob, I will get my well water tested and decide after results what options I will proceed with.

My lake is about 1 mile long x 1/4 mile wide. As for depth, some areas are about 30 to 40ft deep. No motor boats allowed. Laurentians, QC, Canada.

Most of the people in the area (5 lakes, 100+ people), are stilling running on lake water.

Since our Govt is coming with new regulations on septics, weeping fields and wells, this was another reason I wanted to get my well installed. Each well installed in our area must be a min 100ft from weeping fields (yours and neighbors).

Sergio

 

[SergioMastro]

Submersible pumps are usually 3 7/8" Dia. So one in a 4" ID pipe does not have much room and should be easily blocked up with lake stuff.

Thanks for pointers. I will one day lift it up and take a picture for us to review. If it is blocked up with lake stuff it may be some relief where I do not have a bad wire or bad motor.

The money you've put in the lake system would be about the same amount had you treated the well water. Better yet, not drilled a well and treated the lake water.

Not sure what it will cost to treat water, but my lake system cost me:
Grundfos motor (liquidation deal) @100 - I purchased 3 for 300
Pump @300
200ft Blueline & electricty for 2 wire motor ???? Don;t remember price or market price today
Installation @160 (8hrs * 20)
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Total 560$ + water line & wire

You can't use well water in it to water things without getting rust stains everywhere.

That is something that I will miss from my Lake water. Never had to worry about rust stains. I also will miss the soft water lake feel, I really loved my lake water. The shower in city vs country using lake water, is night and day.

Take care..
Sergio

 

[Bob NH]

With your lake water I would use the lake water before I would mess with treating the iron and hardness of the well water.

I would hang the pump in the lake from a float. Hang it in 8 ft or more of water, with the inlet about half way between the surface and bottom.

I install pumps that pump a million gallons per month and there is never a problem with them. By putting the pump at mid-height you avoid things that float and things that sink. The screen on the pump will keep the minnows out of the pump.

For the temperatures that you will have in the lake the motor does not need a sleeve.

If you are pumping through the winter you may want to put a pipe out into the lake and use a pump in a heated location.

I have one customer who supports the pump off the bottom on a support such as you have described and has a heater cable in the pipe to keep it from freezing in the winter.

You should always filter lake water when used for drinking. I would use a 1-micron absolute filter such as the Harmsco PP-BB-20-1. http://www.harmsco.com/uploads/pdf/harmsco_polypleat_catalog.pdf

To get longer life I would precede it with a 5 micron standard pleated filter such as the HB-20-5W or a 1-micron HB-20-1W. http://www.harmsco.com/pdf/IP_CalypsoBlue_FINAL_040904.pdf

I would inject a small amount of chlorine (about 0.5 mg/liter) into the water using an injection pump that runs when the lake pump runs. The chlorine from diluted bleach solution keeps biological organisms from growing in the filters and kills viruses and bacteria that are not always removed by the filters.

If you don't like the small amount of chlorine you can remove it with an activated carbon filter.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Your well water will go cloudy/rusty in a few hours from when you stopped running the water.

I sell high quality softeners and iron filters all over the US (and Canada). The average delivered price in the lower 48 is <$700.00. I also sell all types of chlorination systems, and carbon filters; and anything else used in water treatment.

 

[dumberplumber]

Pump In Lake

With a pump in a lake with electrical wires attached I see a safety hazard and a large potential liability for both the owner and the person that put it there.

 

[Gary Slusser]

But there are a lot of pumps in lakes, rivers and ponds and I can't recall hearing of any causing the type of problems I assume you assume might happen. The same with submersible pumps in millions of residential and commercial wells.

 

[dumberplumber]

But there are a lot of pumps in lakes, rivers and ponds and I can't recall hearing of any causing the type of problems I assume you assume might happen. The same with submersible pumps in millions of residential and commercial wells.

I have never heard of a pump being put in a lake before. A foot valve, yes.
Not many people swim, wade, fish in a well.

 

[Speedbump]

I have never heard of a pump being put in a lake before. A foot valve, yes.
Not many people swim, wade, fish in a well.

Lake strainers maybe but not just foot valves. They let too many big pieces into the pump. To include Snails that grow in the Impeller until they can't get out.

There really are a lot of Submersible pumps in lakes, rivers and streams. I sell them quite often just for such applications.


Then there are fountains and aerators in ponds to prevent algae growth. Same thing.

bob...

 

[SergioMastro]

Valveman, I finally was able to remove lake pump+motor so I can analyse problem. Here is what I did:

1. Pulled blueline, 3 wires, pump, motor, stand to dock area
2. Inspected stand (3 water inflows) for clogging and mesh for clogging - none found
3. Ran more cycles to witness behavior, and it is confirmed that motor cycles on / off
4. Removed motor, and connected backup motor with a temporary electrical joint above water.
5. backup motor was seized, and needed to spin gear for about 30 seconds without power
6. Run another test, and voila - backup motor runs perfect and cycle on / off is now confirmed it is with motor
7. Sealed 3 joints, and dumped pump in dock area before moving it out 30 feet further....

Questions:
1. Is it worth trying to fix this motor?

2. Can I open up motor and inspect wiring?

Take care...
Sergio

Usually when a thermal overload in a motor trips, it is because the motor has cycled on and off until it is at it's limit of useful life. The bearings are worn and the sealed windings have swelled, until the motor is pulling more amps than it can handle, so the overload trips. You will have to get it out where it can be inspected to see what the problem is. Most likely you need a new motor. The SP4 Grundfos is a great pump that they no longer make. The pump end will probably be fine, you just need a new motor. Then you have to reduce the cycling on and off of the pump to make it last longer next time. Cycling on and off kills more pump systems than anything. Every time you double the size of the pressure tank, you cut the cycling in half. Using a Cycle Stop Valve will eliminate cycling during long term water use, works with small pressure tanks, makes your pump system last longer, and delivers "constant pressure" to the house.

 

[Valveman]

Not much that can be fixed on a sub motor but, take it apart and have a look.

 

[SergioMastro]

Ok, don't sure what I'm looking for, but I will take pictures and post them if needed. The motor even with cycle on/off it works and brings my water pressure to 60lbs eventually. I know this will reduce life of motor since every start is what wears down the motor.

Ciao...
Sergio

Not much that can be fixed on a sub motor but, take it apart and have a look.