Polyglass pressure vessel

[ShaneP]

First question posted here, so may require some introduction. I can be fairly handy, but am no plumber. My plumbing typically requires multiple trips to the hardware store combined with a few swear words here and there. However, I usually beat and bang my way around with something and finally figure it out. Again, I'm no plumber, but do have a general understanding of how the pump/pressure tank/pressure switch works and I understand head loss in a pipe system.

We bought this home in Montana almost two years ago and have been having low water pressure issues. As in...........if someone is using water for any purpose in the house, you don't want to be taking a shower. Just something as simple as flushing the toilet or filling a glass of water will wipe out the pressure in the shower, or the garden sprinkler, or.......you name it.

As a side note, becasue I know someone will ask...........we knew this problem existed from the inspection report when we bought this house from the bank, but through the closing negotiations this was one of the items that was not part of the deal.

Anyway.......it has steadily gotten a little worse to the point described above and I'm going to have to work on the problem. Watering the newly sodded yard and garden now that summer has gotten here has made the problem stand out even more because we constantly need to run outside and turn the water off. The house has was built in 65 and added onto in 69. There are two full baths (one on the second floor) and one 1/2 bath, 4 bedrooms. We are on a residential well. The pump appears to be working fine same as the low pressure switch. The water bladder tank doesn't look that old and I'm guessing that it's 20 gallons (I have not checked the bladder pressure). The water sample required by the bank before financing indicated the water was good with all numbers within their acceptable range. The well is 35' deep and produces 30 ish gpm if I recall correctly.

Immediately after the water bladder tank there is a filter (clear plastic and about 12" or so deep) that I can change out and have about every other month with a fiber filter that looks like a roll of twine that I buy at Home Depot. It gets a nice rust color to it before being changed so I'm assuming Iron. After the filter I've just described there is a Polyglass Pressure Vessel (approximately 6 to 8" diameter and 36 to 48" tall) that I'm assuming is for some sort of filtration or water softening. There is no date on it at least not that I can read. I can find very limited info online about these other than they are used for filtration/water softening.

Troubleshooting the water bladder tank, pump, and low pressure switch should be simple enough (I did a quick check last year and everything seemed ok). Is it possible that the filter media within this tank is causing some of my pressure problems? Where can I buy a replacement filter for the polyglass pressure vessel? Is this filter really necessary or can I just bypass the thing/remove it? Does a 20 gallon pressure bladder tank seem large enough for a two story house described above? What should the bladder pressure be? What is a standard pressure for the low pressure switch to try to maintain? I think I have the old paperwork for the submersible pump. What size pump would you expect?

 

[Reach4]

I would get a water test on your raw water. I like kit 90 from http://www.moravecwaterwells.com/index.php/maintainance/disinfection-and-testing Figure to get results in about 2 weeks which include mailing the kit to you, and you mailing the samples back.

Then I would post a picture or two of your system-- in particular the "pressure vessel" and controller. If that is a water softener, it probably has a bypass. It could be an assembly on the back of the controller, or it could be 3 separate nearby valves. Your dimensions for the vessel would be smallish for a softener. Also, a softener would have a brine tank nearby -- the tank that provides salt for softener regen.

For the cartridge filter, what are the cartridge dimensions? Get a spare O ring, since you would be out of action if the O-ring went bad, right? Do not use a cellulose filter for unchlorinated well water. Use a polypropoline element. That cartridge would be a place that you might lose pressure. A 10x2.5 cartridge is small for a whole house filter.

Normally your pressure tank is sized to let the pump run at least a minute each time. A 20 gallon pressure tank would have a drawdown of about 5 gallons, so it would be a good match for a 5 GPM pump.

Pressure tank precharge air pressure is checked and set with the water pressure=0. That air pressure is normally set to 2 PSI lower than the cut-on pressure for the pressure switch.

 

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[ShaneP]

I should probably add that the tanks are located in the basement and there is a first and second floor above this. The pressure gage was setting on 47 when I checked it with nothing running.
You can see by the fittings that this is not the original set up. The routing of the piping after the tanks drives me crazy, but I suppose it was done when the addition was added on (maybe even later) and it's not enough to affect pressure to this extent. It just looks bad.

The polyglass tank is not part of a softner system because there is no brine tank, so I'm assuming it is just some sort of filter. I've got the results of the water test that was conducted before we closed on the house. It was completed by a competent lab and I think the sample was pulled directly from the well. I'll have to dig out the report.

You can see the cartridge filter has already gotten a nice orange color to it and needs changed. It's been in about a month and I put in the same type filter that was in it when I bought it, but that doesn't mean it's correct. I'm pretty sure I've bypssed the cartridge before and it mad no difference in pressure. Were you saying that the filter/cartridge that is wound similar to kite string is not correct?

There is no way to bypass the polyglass tank on the right. I've also noticed that the tank is seeping water from the top (I think). I've not noticed this before. The flash on my phone made it stand out.

 

[Craigpump]

First thing you need is a pressure relief valve installed so if the pressure switch sticks you don't rupture the filter housing or tank.

The fiberglass vessel could be carbon for Radon reduction or possibly carbon to remove a smell, but usually the there is a second filter after that vessel to trap any carbon that escapes from the tank.

I know another poster likes to send water to unknown labs, BUT, unless your willing to send it overnight special delivery with return receipt requested, find a local lab to get the most accurate results. You don't want to rely on "snail mail" to get your samples into a lab. Water quality, pH, bacteria & odor can/will change over a few days time especially when sitting someplace like in a mailbox or mail truck. If the USPS can't deliver a letter, they sure won't care about your water. The lab I use won't guaranty the accuracy of any samples that aren't logged in the same day they are drawn, the bacteria is set & pH checked immediately after being logged in.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I would add a by-pass valve/line before the filter and fiberglass tank, that would let you test if there is a restriction in either. And if something were to go wrong with either (and during maintenance), you would be able to keep water flowing to rest of house.

Since the fiberglass tank has couplings on both sides, it would not be too difficult to make up a short piece of pipe to insert in place of the tank to test whether or not the fiberglass tank is clogged.

 

[Valveman]

It always irritates me when someone says they have low pressure from their own well pump system. I mean it is your system. You can have as much pressure as you want. You just have to make it happen. Many times it is as simple as just increasing the setting of the pressure switch. With the switch in the basement of a three story house, I would probably set it as 60/80 instead of 40/60.

But you do need to make sure the pump you have can build this much pressure and deliver the volume needed to maintain this pressure. If after turning up the pressure switch, the pump can easily make it to 80 so the switch can shut it off, then the pump is capable of the higher pressure. Then do a volume test by running several things in the house at the same time. If while running several things at once the pressure drops low and stays low, then the pump is not capable of delivering the volume needed. If while running more than one thing the pressure just keeps cycling between 60 and 80 over and over, then the pump is more than capable of deliver the volume needed.

If the pressure goes low and stays low, you will need a larger pump. If the pump cannot build to 80 PSI to be shut off, you will need a larger pump. But if the pressure continues to cycle between 60 and 80 while you are using water, the pump is large enough. Then many times the pressure will still seem low BECAUSE the pressure is bouncing between 60 and 80 continuously, and when at 60, the pressure is much lower than when at 80. In this case a CSV will make the pressure stronger by maintaining a steady 70 PSI as long as water is being used. The 70 PSI constant from the CSV is much stronger shower pressure than when the pump is cycling from 60 to 80.

Also the filters can decrease the pressure after the pump controls. So even when a CSV is holding 70 PSI steady, you could only be getting 40-50 past the filters. Attaching a pressure gauge to a faucet after the filters will tell you how much pressure loss is created by the filters. Then if you want you can up the pressure of the pressure switch and/or the CSV to make up for the loss.

"Strong city like pressure" is something the cities made up to make you think city pressure is stronger than well pump pressure. But again, it is your pump system and you can have as much pressure as you want. Just don't settle for anything less.

 

[Reach4]

The tank could be calcite to raise the pH. That gets consumed, and you have to pour more in. Usually people use a larger tank with a port for refilling for calcite. The pH from your water test would be under 7.0 and probably under 6.5 at the well for them to want to put in calcite.

I am not saying your string wound filter cartridge is cellulose. It is very probably polypropylene as it should be. It is worth checking the next time you have a label to read.

"Watering the newly sodded yard and garden now that summer has gotten here has made the problem stand out even more because we constantly need to run outside and turn the water off. The house has was built in 65 and added onto in 69. "
Note that the outside faucets should be connected before your whole-house filter. So if that is the case, if turning off the lawn watering helps your inside pressure a lot, that would indicate that the whole house filter and fiberglass tank are not your source of pressure drop. If your hose bibs are connected after the fiberglass tank, consider re-routing that.

 

[ShaneP]

Thank you for the replies. I do understand there is always the possibility of me just raising the pressure settings and appreciate the description on how to verify that my system can keep up with the increased settings. While that may very well be what is necessary, I suspect that at one time the current pressure settings were sufficient, so just raising the settings does not fix the cause of the problem.

I will likely bypass the filters to see if they are causing my problems. If they are not, I'll adjust pressures as suggested and see if my pump can keep up.

I did find the pump documentation and see that the pump is a Meyers 1/2 HP, 12 GPM submersible pump. The diagram for set up does show a relief valve should be installed as suggested above.

The poly tank could be for Radon since I had high radon #'s during the inspection and had to have a Radon removal system installed.

 

[Reach4]

For pressure testing, you could remove the filter element from the cartridge filter housing. Do have a spare O-ring on hand when you open that housing. Also, when using an O-ring on a system, lightly lube it with silicone grease. I have a tube of Molykote 111 that I use. It lasts a very long time because you use very little at a time. Molykote 111 is thicker than many lubricants used on O-rings.

After you find your water test results, you might consider system improvements. A Katalox Light tank can treat iron, manganese, H2S and radon among other things. If your water test does not give iron, manganese, arsenic, pH and hardness info, you want to get a lab water test that includes those and more.

Most water tests don't test for radon and H2S, but the nose is a good indicator of H2S.

A 20 gallon pressure tank is not usually a good match for a 12 GPM pump. How long does your pump run at a minimum?

 

[Valveman]

From 35' deep a 12 GPM, 1/2HP can produce a max of about 85 PSI. So you could safely turn the pressure switch up as high as 55/75 if you want.

 

[ShaneP]

I just timed the cycle. I've got an exterior valve wide open right now watering the front yard. The switch is operating at 38/58 psi. It takes approximately 38 seconds for the pressure to go from 58 to 38 psi then only 13 seconds for the pump to return the pressure back to 58.

 

[Reach4]

That says that your pressure tank is undersized.

To time the minimum on time, it is best to use a low flow from a faucet until the pump kicks on. Start timing, and turn off the faucet. When the pump kicks off, stop timing. Since you have 13 seconds while using a lot of water, the low/no flow time will be substantially less than that. You would like to have 60 seconds or more.

 

[Valveman]

A 20 gallon pressure tank only holds 5 gallons of water. So of course it is undersized for a 12 GPM pump. While running a 2.5 GPM faucet it should take about 38 seconds to drain the tank. Then when the 12 GPM pump comes on, 13 seconds is about right to fill that size tank. But 38 seconds on and 13 seconds off is bad for the pump. Like Reach said one minute of run time is minimum for sizing a tank. However, if you have a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the cycling, that tank is really larger than you need. The CSV makes the water flow right past the tank to the faucet at the right flow rate, so there is no extra water produced to cause the pump to cycle. You either need a tank about 4 times that size, OR add a CSV to the tank and system you have.

 

[Reach4]

I'm pretty sure I've bypssed the cartridge before and it made no difference in pressure.

I just re-read that. How could you have bypassed that cartridge?

Do you have info on that cartridge? I suspect that cartridge as being the thing limiting the pressure to the house.

 

[ShaneP]

Sorry. My terminology may not be correct. The cartridge that I'm saying I've bypassed is the small clear one before the poly tank. The small filter has an internal valve in the top that when turned bypasses the filter itself. I currently cannot bypass the blue poly tank in question.

 

[Reach4]

The cartridge that I'm saying I've bypassed is the small clear one before the poly tank. The small filter has an internal valve in the top that when turned bypasses the filter itself. I currently cannot bypass the blue poly tank in question.

Ahh... I was unaware of that. Very nice feature. Your terminology for that filter was good.

A pressure gauge with a garden hose thread could be attached to your laundry hose faucets or the water heater drain valve as a way to measure inside water pressure after the filter stuff. It won't pinpoint the drop cause. If you are measuring the cold water and draw only hot, or you measure the hot pressure and use only cold in your test, you know you are measuring drop that occurs before the tee that goes to the water heater.

 

[ShaneP]

Considering that my tank is obviously undersized for the pump, or the pump is oversized for the tank, I believe I'll add a CSV as suggested by valveman to control the cycling issue.

As far as the pressure goes, I'm going to pull the poly tank and install pipe between the two couplings to see where that gets me. Then try to determine what is actually in the poly tank and if it needs to be replaced and reinstalled. I'm betting that I'll still need to up the settings from 38/58 to 50/70 or 55/75 as suggested. In doing that, I'll need to adjust the bladder pressure in the Well x Troll pressure tank.

I've not been able to locate a placard that states the model#, but 'm pretty sure that I have the Well x Trol 202 (20 gallon tank). The largest it could be is 202XL (26 gallon tank). I've read and can see how to adjust the bladder pressure, but I've not seen if there is a pressure limit to the tank model. Will the 202 bladder operate fine set at 48 or 53 psi?

 

[Valveman]

WX 202 or 203 is rated to 100 PSI. If you put 48 to 53 PSI air in the tank, you will need to set the pressure switch at 50/70 or 55/75 respectively.

 

[Reach4]

Well x Trol 202 can be set up to those pressures and beyond. Its maximum working pressure rating is 150 psi. http://www.amtrol.com/wellxtrol.html

I had messaged you that I thought it more likely that the fiberglass tank might be calcite due to the white residue.

Don't forget the water test.

 

[ShaneP]

Valveman, thanks for the info. Yes, I'm assuming that regardless of what I find with the fiberglass tank, I'll need to up the pressure switch to at least 50/70. Considering the system that I've described, which CSV should I be installing?

Reach4, thanks for the calcite info. I've yet to find the previous water test, but believe it was the raw water and not taken after filtration. I'll have to confirm that. If it was taken after filtration, I'd agree that I'll need to retest to see if the calcite is necessary.