Patent that was supposed to fix all problems with air volume control valves

Users who are viewing this thread

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
I remember my uncle telling me about this invention and I finally found it. It was invented in my home town by Laurence J. Parker, Guthrie, Okla

My grandpa use to work for him doing pump work out of his business downtown called "Parker Hardware Store" before my grandpa started his own business in 1964.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3733449


It just came around to late because Amtrol was already getting everybody to switch over to their tanks by 1973 and getting away from Standard tanks.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
That is very interesting. Having been issued a few patents on this subject myself, I have studied a multitude of other patents. It is amazing just how many patents where filed for and/or issued to try and solve the problem of cycling pumps to death. I have a file with literally hundreds of patents, all trying to solve this problem. At the very least it shows just how big a problem cycling is to the life of pumps.

However, just because you have a patent on a device that will solve the problem of pump cycling, doesn't mean it will quickly become common place in the industry. To the contrary, a product that actually solves the problem like a CSV, is considered a disruptive product and is shunned by many in the industry. This is similar to someone inventing a mousetrap that works so well it would make mice extinct. While they may say it is a good idea, people who sell mousetraps will do everything in their power to discredit it or even buy the patent for the sole purpose of disposing of it. It would be disruptive to the mousetrap industry to actually let mice go extinct. People in the mousetrap industry will do everything they can to keep an invention like that from being used, the same way people in the pump industry are doing everything they can to keep people from using a CSV.

I have a device called the Cycle Sensor which will do the same thing as the device in the above patent. The difference is the Cycle Sensor is not attached to the tank or water line in anyway. Yet it will still shut the pump off, just as this device will, when the air volume in the tank is reduced causing the pump to cycle. All you do is set it to the run time it takes to fill the pressure tank when the air volume in the tank is correct. So if you have a pump/tank setup that gives 1 minute of run time to fill the tank, you set the Rapid Cycle feature of the Cycle Sensor for 50 seconds. This is a good way to make sure the air charge in a bladder or a standard tank is always maintained properly. If the air volume in the tank is decreased or there is any other reason the pump does not run for at least 50 seconds, the Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off and say RCYC for rapid cycle as seen in the following picture, before the motor is damaged from cycling.
P7060013.JPG
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
We have found out that you just need to keep the pump from Short Cycling or Rapid Cycling but I do like your device to keep the pump from doing both, so you set it and forget it, till it trips. Great idea!
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I have mine set for 60 seconds, because I get about 70 seconds of runtime. When it trips on RCYC (rapid cycle) I just go out and reset it for 45 seconds. I usually forget that I was going to add some air to the tank until it trips at 45 seconds. Then I usually dig out the top of the tank and recharge the air to 40-45 PSI since I run a 50/70 switch. It seems to last a year or two. Just long enough for the grass in the yard to heal before I have to dig it up again. I have reset it for 30 seconds and let it go a long time just because I was too lazy to dig it up. But because of the CSV my 2HP Grundfos drops from 12 amps to about 5, so running less than 30 seconds is not really bad for it.

The Cycle Sensor is the only device I know of that will remind you when the air in the tank just gets a little low. Other devices want to see 5 starts in 3 minutes or something like that, and your pump is already rapid cycling before you know the air in the tank was low. The Cycle Sensor is a good idea for anyone who wants to be reminded to do preventive maintenance. It can be locked so the owner can't just change the numbers and bypass it like I do. So it shuts the pump off every time it runs less than the setting of 60 seconds, and has to be manually reset. It won't let you just forget about the low air in the tank. It is going to make you add some air now, or you won't have water.

The Cycle Sensor doesn't have to be used with a CSV. It can be used with any size pressure tank and you can set it to make sure the pump always runs 60 minutes instead of just 60 seconds if needed. When the Cycle Sensor is used with a CSV, it's really just making sure the CSV is doing it's job and the pump isn't cycling. That way it is kind of like insurance to make sure the mousetrap really does catch ALL the mice. :)
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I hope quailrancher doesn't mind me quoting him from another thread.

I have no way of knowing how often the pump has been coming on, and neither would my neighbor, as the pump is a distance from the house.

It is very normal that a homeowner would never go to the well house as long as water is coming out of the faucets. If you would not notice the pump was cycling on and off more than normal, a Cycle Sensor is a good idea because it watches that for you every minute of the day. That way you would know to add some air to the tank long before your start cap, relay, pressure switch, or motor was completely fried.
 

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
It is very normal that a homeowner would never go to the well house as long as water is coming out of the faucets. If you would not notice the pump was cycling on and off more than normal, a Cycle Sensor is a good idea because it watches that for you every minute of the day. That way you would know to add some air to the tank long before your start cap, relay, pressure switch, or motor was completely fried.


You can say that again! We see burned up motors due to waterlogged tanks all the time. I always ask if they noticed erratic water pressure? Yeah but........ Now they get a pump, wire and a tank.

Pay me now or pay me later
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
We have found out that you just need to keep the pump from Short Cycling or Rapid Cycling but I do like your device to keep the pump from doing both, so you set it and forget it, till it trips. Great idea!

You can say that again! We see burned up motors due to waterlogged tanks all the time. I always ask if they noticed erratic water pressure? Yeah but........ Now they get a pump, wire and a tank.

Pay me now or pay me later

Yeah the "short cycling" and "rapid cycling" that usually comes from a waterlogged tank is what eventually destroys the pump/motor. But the repetitive on and off from so called "normal cycling" is what causes the waterlogged tank, bad check valve, leaks, or other problems that lead to the "rapid cycling" condition in the first place.

The Cycle Sensor will warn you and shut off the pump when rapid cycling conditions exist. But the Cycle Stop Valve will eliminate repetitive cycling in normal conditions. This keeps the tank and check valve from being damaged and causing the "rapid cycle" condition that would ultimately destroy the pump/motor.

The CSV is like wrapping your car in a steel pipe frame so it can't be damaged in anyway. And if anything does happen to the steel armor, the Cycle Sensor is like insurance that will warn you and shut the car off before any damage to the vehicle can occur.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
With your device it will just make sure everyone can see that long life and not just for the people that know how to do Preventive Maintenance. I don't blame the systems, I blame the pressure tank manufacture for making poor quality tanks these days. With your device it will finally put real hurting on them as we have been trying do by showing people how to do Preventive Maintenance. The other problem I have seen with plastic impellers, is going to take both of to fix it because their is nobody else I have found that can break down pump/motors like the both us can and I think we are on the right track with your 3gpm CSV. Yes, you can blame the pump companies for that problem but it's up to us to find away around their poor designed pump when using chokes.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
Only at low flows will you see that problem, I forgot to add that in.
Grundfros pump will do trick because Valveman has shown no damage was found on them after many years of use, so am definitely going to recommend to people that they should use that brand of pump. For the people that already have plastic impellers in there well on 1-2gpm Dole Valve, at least now you know not to put another one those pumps down the well.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
With your device it will just make sure everyone can see that long life and not just for the people that know how to do Preventive Maintenance. I don't blame the systems, I blame the pressure tank manufacture for making poor quality tanks these days. With your device it will finally put real hurting on them as we have been trying do by showing people how to do Preventive Maintenance.

The pressure tank manufacturers are most likely putting less quality into their tanks than they did in the past. But that is just one more good reason to limit or reduce the number of cycles as much as possible. When no water is being used the bladder in the tank is not moving so it is just sitting there like a spare tire. Of course a spare tire can leak some of it's air while just sitting, but not as much as the tires that are being used. The tires on the ground will lose air quicker than the spare because the sidewalls are flexing back and forth and the temperature is going up and down.

When the pump is cycling the tank bladder is continually going up and down. This stretching of the rubber bladder will open up pores, causing it to lose more air. The bladder pumping up and down while the pump is cycling will also pump the air chamber up to 60 then let it fall to 40 over and over. This will actually pump some of the air out of the tank through the steel or fiberglass shell. When no water is being used the bladder is not flexing up and down and not losing air.

When using water for extended periods of time a system with a CSV will just hold the system at a constant 50 PSI. The pressure in the tank is not going from 40 to 60 over and over, so the tank is just sitting there as if not being used. With a CSV there is no cycling action to accelerate the loss of air from the tank.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
I agree, I see that from our used tanks outback, that we use to give people construction water for new homes and how they will lose their precharge from just sitting there not in use.

How much is your Cycle Sensor, so I can play with one on my own systems before I start recommended to people how great they are, maybe get my supply house to start stocking them as well and tell them about what we have found to get them to start stocking your CSV again, so all people can see long life out of both systems because I like both systems now, even if you beat our old school system, I will still like them.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I agree, I see that from our used tanks outback, that we use to give people construction water for new homes and how they will lose their precharge from just sitting there not in use.

There is a reason tanks that are sitting out back or still in the box will lose air sooner than a tank that is in service. When sitting idle with water pressure inside, the water chamber has the same pressure as the air chamber. With the water pressure on one side being the same as the air pressure on the other side of the diaphragm, the air is less likely to pass through the diaphragm and be lost. It is only when the pump is cycling and the pressures on both sides of the diaphragm keep changing that the air will more easily pass through the rubber and be lost with the water.

When the tank is still in the box or just sitting in the yard, there is 38 PSI air on the air side of the diaphragm, and zero pressure on the other side. So the air can more easily pass through the diaphragm and be lost.

How much is your Cycle Sensor, so I can play with one on my own systems before I start recommended to people how great they are, maybe get my supply house to start stocking them as well and tell them about what we have found to get them to start stocking your CSV again, so all people can see long life out of both systems because I like both systems now, even if you beat our old school system, I will still like them.

The retail Internet price of a Cycle Sensor with a Nema 4X enclosure is only 184 bucks. That is pretty cheap insurance to make sure your pressure tank never loses enough air to cause rapid cycling. It also works as a Dry Run protection device. Besides making sure the tank has air, the Cycle Sensor will also make sure the well or cistern storage tank has water, or it will shut the pump down the same way it does when the air in the tank is low.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
I thought this was interesting, I called my supply house and they told me, they have never seen or heard about this problem and all their pumps our plastic impellers but everyone else uses 20gal tanks and that somebody told me wrong about them not stocking your product. I also told them about your Cycle Sensor and they were going check it out.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
Once the water has been drained, air is pumped into the tanks through an appropriate air valve 48 communicating with the control valves immediately above the nipple 24. Air is pumped into the system until the desired precharge of compressed air has been established, the pressure gauge 44 enabling an easy determination thereof.

That is what I do.

What do the pros do ?
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Once the water has been drained, air is pumped into the tanks through an appropriate air valve 48 communicating with the control valves immediately above the nipple 24. Air is pumped into the system until the desired precharge of compressed air has been established, the pressure gauge 44 enabling an easy determination thereof.

That is what I do.

What do the pros do ?

That is the only thing you can do with a regular hydro-pneumatic tank. The bladder in a bladder tank just keeps the air from mixing with the water and getting lost out of the faucets.
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Don't think the pump guys here offer your sensor or Franklins except on the worst wells. They would loose a lot of work.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
Depends on how many customers you have to where it would give you a bunch of service calls on these poor quality tanks now days.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks