New well drilled, need suggestions on finishing

Users who are viewing this thread

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Do the supply houses not carry CycleStopValves? He showed me a Flomatic Cycle Gard IV but obviously it's not what I am looking for (it is a nice valve though, I have it in my hand). He said he'll do whatever I want, so I need to say "I want this model CycleStopValve, this pressure switch, this tank" because saying "I want to use a CycleStopValve" equals "insert any brand here" to him. It looks like I should use the CSV1A, but I'm not sure on sizing the tank and what pressure switch I should use. Under tank sizing it doesn't really say if the extent of irrigation matters. I have 4 acres of land.

Supply houses don’t like to have to carry Cycle Stop Valves. If you must use something that will make the pump last longer and use smaller tanks, they had rather you go with a Flomatic or other copy of a CSV, so that hopefully you will have problems.

The Flomatic is a pretty close copy of a CSV. But close only counts with hand grenades and horseshoes. You need a CSV1A, or a Pside-Kick kit. The kit comes with a CSV1A, but also has a 4.5 gallon tank, pressure switch, gauge, and all the other fittings you need.
 

Whipsaw

Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
WA
I actually just found out that CSV is suing Flomatic for patent infringement! What a can of worms this has turned into...

I've realized where I am at as a customer. "valveman" owns CycleStopValves (which I wish he would have just told me up front instead of having to find it out myself- even a PM would be fine), which is obviously a good product from what I have read and one which he believes to be far superior to any other. It is in his own financial interests for me to purchase his product.

My pump guy is listening to the supply house's recommendations which are in their own financial interests, and also his. My own financial interests are best served by the product which provides me long term durability and function. I happen to like the CSV from what I've read, and it also seems to be fairly priced, though I have not found a price for the whole kit, or a recommendation as to where I can buy it. I am basically trying to navigate a sea of special interests and am on my own.
 
Last edited:

Whipsaw

Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
WA
Another question I have on my well: Should I request Schedule 40 PVC or black poly?
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I actually just found out that CSV is suing Flomatic for patent infringement! What a can of worms this has turned into...

That is old news, and I promised I wouldn’t talk about it.

I've realized where I am at as a customer. "valveman" owns CycleStopValves (which I wish he would have just told me up front instead of having to find it out myself- even a PM would be fine),

Sorry! I thought I was being very obvious with a screen name like “Valveman”, a link to my web page, and an avatar of one of my products on every post. It should also be obvious from the content of many of my posts, in which several have my real name and phone number for anyone who is confused. I wasn’t trying to hide anything.

which is obviously a good product from what I have read and one which he believes to be far superior to any other. It is in his own financial interests for me to purchase his product.

Yeah I am going to get rich selling you an inexpensive little valve. Lol! It is not like I am trying to talk you out of thousands of dollars for something like a VFD or a huge pressure tank. For 21 years I have offered a money back warranty if your not satisfied, and no one has yet asked for that.

My pump guy is listening to the supply house's recommendations which are in their own financial interests, and also his.

The pump man and supply house recommended a VFD. You said, “I know he makes a chunk of change on the equipment”. You are right. And as soon as you install a VFD, it’s yours, no money back. They also guaranteed you only have to spend a “chunk of change” every five years or so. How nice of them.

My own financial interests are best served by the product which provides me long term durability and function. I happen to like the CSV from what I've read, and it also seems to be fairly priced, though I have not found a price for the whole kit, or a recommendation as to where I can buy it. I am basically trying to navigate a sea of special interests and am on my own.

You are not on your own. I have been trying to inform you as best I can. Clicking on the link at the bottom of my posts will take you to phone numbers, prices, technical assistance, and anything else you need. I try to post informative answers to questions, not blatantly advertise a product. When you understand how pumps really work, the CSV sells itself.

Another question I have on my well: Should I request Schedule 40 PVC or black poly?

Never glue Sch 40 pipe in a well. Use Sch 80 or 120 threaded or 160# poly pipe with double length bard fittings for two hose clamps. That is one of the things your pump man should know.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,091
Reaction score
456
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
Just started reading through some of these posts, and while I am not a pump expert, I am more a water treatment expert, I have done my fair amount of work with VFD's on everything from small pumps to 400 HP electric motors, and I have used them in air balancing systems, as soft starts, multiple input air duct systems for pharmaceutical dust control systems in 600,000 square foot manufacturing facilities and even on little ultra pure water system distribution systems, and I have not seen a massive failure rate, or any failure rate for that matter. What causes the VFD's to perform so badly in a well application?
 

Whipsaw

Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
WA
I misspoke when I said Schedule 40. It's threaded, heavy duty white pipe- maybe 120? It is really heavy walled stuff. He showed it to me. For some reason I thought it might be nicer to have the black poly in case I ever wanted to pull the pump myself. If it's flexible, I could hook it to my tractor and drag it across the property. I couldn't do that with the rigid stuff.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Just started reading through some of these posts, and while I am not a pump expert, I am more a water treatment expert, I have done my fair amount of work with VFD's on everything from small pumps to 400 HP electric motors, and I have used them in air balancing systems, as soft starts, multiple input air duct systems for pharmaceutical dust control systems in 600,000 square foot manufacturing facilities and even on little ultra pure water system distribution systems, and I have not seen a massive failure rate, or any failure rate for that matter. What causes the VFD's to perform so badly in a well application?

There are lots of good applications for VFD’s. I am not sure fans are one of them because fans act so much like centrifugal pumps. But with positive displacement pumps, conveyor belts, escalators, elevators, closed loop systems, or even hybrid cars, variable speed drives can be very beneficial.

It is only in one particular niche where a VFD is misused and more trouble and expense than it is worth. That niche is with pumps that have centrifugal impellers working with a static head to overcome, which is pretty much all water supply system applications.

There are several reasons for this, and most have to do with the limits in the laws of physics. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the RPM. When lifting water from a well and/or producing a steady pressure, this loss of head greatly limits the minimum speed the pump can run, which greatly limits any possible reduction in energy consumption.

When you understand the almost magical properties of a centrifugal impeller, you will know that simply restricting the flow of a full speed pump with a valve reduces the energy consumption almost exactly the same as when varying the speed. So the real question is, why would anyone want a complicated, expensive, and problematic device when a simple, inexpensive little valve will do the same thing?

The reason the little VFD’s for house pump systems are so unreliable is that they are trying to make a “plug and play”, easy to install, less expensive version to compete with a simple little valve. Then these cheaper little VFD’s are installed in well houses and crawl spaces where the ambient temperature can get higher or lower than the VFD can tolerate. They are also susceptible to lint, dirt, insects, and other stuff being drawn into the electronics by the cooling fan. The lack of qualified maintenance from home owners leads to an even quicker demise of residential size VFD’s.

In commercial applications VFD’s are larger, more robust, expensive, and installed in climate-controlled rooms with air purifiers, surge protection, harmonic filters, and other protection. They are maintained by qualified personal, which change filters and replace cooling fans on a regular basis. The environment in these mechanical rooms must be kept cool and clean, even when the pumps are not running.

I have heard from many a facility, especially in warmer climates, that the air conditioning for the VFD’s in mechanical rooms uses more energy than the pumps themselves. This along with the fact that a VFD actually increases energy consumption per gallon produced makes a liar out of anyone who claims a VFD saves energy.

I was schooled in Electrical Engineering. In the late 70’s and early 80’s I was building computers and radio transmitters, which is basically what a VFD is. I like to say I am an expert on VFD’s, which is why I would never use one for a centrifugal pump application that must produce a static head.

I can get much more technical about it. I have lots of articles, pump curves, calculations, and references on my web page if you are interested. I have several letters to editors and have written articles correcting statements from pump manufactures, VFD manufactures, and even the DOE on my web page.

It all relates to a story about a writing instrument NASA developed to work in space. The pen had to work in extremely hot as well as sub zero temperatures. It had to work in zero gravity as well as multiple G’s. It needed to work upside down, right side up, sideways, in any condition, and on any surface. NASA spent millions developing the pen, and each one that went into space cost millions to produce. Russia had the same requirements for a writing instrument that would work in space. They saved millions of dollars and actually had a more reliable device by simply using a #2 pencil. In other words, when there are two or more ways to accomplish the same task, the simplest way is usually the best.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I misspoke when I said Schedule 40. It's threaded, heavy duty white pipe- maybe 120? It is really heavy walled stuff. He showed it to me. For some reason I thought it might be nicer to have the black poly in case I ever wanted to pull the pump myself. If it's flexible, I could hook it to my tractor and drag it across the property. I couldn't do that with the rigid stuff.

If you ever want to pull it yourself go with the poly. But pump men like the 20' joints of threaded pipe as that works much better with their pulling hoist trucks.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,091
Reaction score
456
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
I was recently charged with the task of reducing energy consumption at a major Pharma company. We went for the easy stuff first. Lighting was the biggest and fastest ROI. We instantly saw a reduction of over 80%, which had an ROI of less than 1 year. The next items were the massive vacuum and dust collection systems. These had no controls. By tying in the dust intakes of rooms into the lighting controls (motion detection), we were able to isolate section of the building with simple dampers on eadh room. This obviously had the problem of causing rooms to go out of balance as the "vacuum" would increase as rooms became unoccupied. A simple redundant vacuum sensor in the mani duct tied into a simple VFD instantly alleviated this issue and we were able to see a reduction of over 50%, which is significant on a 60 HP motor that is running 24/7 except for the rare downtime it would get for maintenance or during the 4 weeks a year we would shut the plant down for major maintenance. Water distribution was next, multistage pumps with simple VFD's, some were tied directly into the GE HMI software showed reductions in energy consumption by up to 25%, while not significant, and actually quite difficult to justify on the 8-10 year ROI, the energy savings were there, it was just quite expensive. I like the simplicity of your equipment, and I mean no disrespect, I am simply trying to learn more about the water industry. I appreciate your response and I will continue to work on growing my knowledge.

Maybe the main difference is that in a residential well, a VFD's ROI, vs simplicity of your unit... yours would make a lot more sense. The VFD's we used were never low end units, nor did we look at cost as being a deciding factor, it was always about quality, efficiency, longevity. Most Homeowners unfortunately are always looking online for the cheapest items they can find. They see a VFD, they want a VFD, then they look for the lowest cost VFD, which in my opinion is a huge mistake.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I don’t really understand the vacuum system you are describing, but vacuum pumps are a good fit for VFD’s, because they work more like positive displacement pumps. Meaning they still work at very low RPM’s.

I have no doubt that energy consumption was reduced by adding VFD’s to an inefficient pumping system. But if adding VFD’s reduced energy consumption by 25%, actually sizing the pumps to better fit the load would have decreased energy consumption considerably more, no matter how the pumps are controlled. On some pump systems where I was ask to help decrease energy consumption, simply adding a jockey pump cut energy cost in half or more.

I also find many times that during the process of adding VFD’s, the pipe size was increased, system pressure was lowered, a smaller pump was added, or a dump valve was discontinued. These items are overlooked even though they are the real reasons for the energy saved. Yet people believe the hype and can see/hear it slowing down the pump, so the VFD wrongfully gets all the credit for the energy savings.

Nothing can be more efficient than a properly sized pump, running at full speed, working at its best efficiency point, and controlled by an across the line contactor.

Adding a VFD to a properly sized pump decreases motor efficiency by 3% to 5% over an across the line starter/contactor. The VFD itself has parasitic losses as it uses hundreds of watts to function. A VFD also continues to use energy, even when the pump is off, unlike a regular starter/contactor which does not.

Pump companies are slowly figuring out that cheap residential “plug and play” VFD’s are ruining their reputations. They are all making a move to higher end drives. However, it was hard to justify a $500 adder for a drive on a residence. It will be even harder to justify a more expensive drive, especially when you understand they don’t save energy as claimed. And more expensive still doesn’t mean you can leave it in a humid crawl space or a hot and dusty well house with zero maintenance.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,091
Reaction score
456
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
I think we are in agreement. A VFD can work if properly designed, and most now go into enrgy saving mode, using almost no power during the pumps off cycle, but the only way to properly design one makes them currently a bad investment due to the extreremely long ROI and the increased complexity and potential increase in service due to the addition of more parts.

We used them extensively in applications that required constant changes in flow, pressures, etc. many were interfaced into HMI or PLC systems with external controllers that would indicate the current flow or pressure needs that varied considerably during the day. The VFD we used were top of the line, very expensive, and had a considerable ROI, but it was still justified in the end since the ROI was under 10 years with all known variables (installation, maintenance, energy consumption etc) taken into accoount.

And the Vacuum systems were nothing more than glorified blowers using very large squirrel cages. The motor RPM at a specific speed was the most efficient, but by reducing the speed by 70% we were able to maintain a near 50% reduction in energy consumption. Obviously water pumps work on a similar efficiency curve, outside of their peak efficiency design parameters the energy consumption is not linear, but it does exist.

Thanks for the quick education.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
and most now go into energy saving mode, using almost no power during the pumps off cycle

That is something new to me. Thanks for that. I still learn something new everyday. But I should learn to keep my mouth shut. I have been teaching classes on this subject for 20 some years. A few years ago I was teaching a class in Vegas and several VFD manufactures where listening. I made a big deal about not being able to use a pressure tank with a VFD, as they would not allow the use of a pressure differential. A few months later I see VFD’s with “sleep mode”, allowing a differential to use a pressure tank.

I have also made the statement many times about VFD’s using energy even when the pump is off. Now they have an “energy saving mode” for times when the pump is off. Go figure!

They seem to eventually find a design around for most of the system inadequacies I point out. Now if they can just find a way to design around the problems caused by Mother Nature’s laws of physics, like harmonics, voltage spikes, reflective waves, resonance frequencies, etc., they might really have something.
 

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
My son sat in on a class at the New England Water Well show last week that covered VFDs. One of the topics of discussion was interference. The suggested solutions are to not run the pump cable parallel to the Romex wiring. Keep the lead from the transducer to the drive as short as possible, do not coil it and tape it off and run the pump cable through grounded metallic conduit.
 

Huck Finn

New Member
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Northeast
So, things that I know.

A CSV will not damage the pump. Regardless of the notion that the valve exerts back pressure or that cooling will not occur, a CSV when it is in restricting mode only decrease operating amps and that's because if a pump or fan can't move fluid it doesn't have to work as hard. RPM's remain constant. Thrust bearings will see no increased or decreased load either.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks