New Burnham MPO-IQ 115 slow to heat

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Chris_in_MA

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Hello,

I have read on the forum here a bit and it seems that the community has some really intelligent members so I was hoping maybe I could get some help.

I had a new MPO-IQ 115 boiler installed recently to replace a 33yr old Burnham. I have always set the temp back about 8 degrees at night and the old boiler could get the house up to temp in about 30-40min. The new boiler takes about 3hrs to climb to temp, so I am a little confused as to what to do.

Should I not be setting it back on this new boiler? Any suggestions?
 

Dana

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How much of what type of radiation do you have?

What is the high-limit set to on the new boiler?

What was the burner size on the old boiler? (And high-limit temp, if known.)

How cold does it actually get over night (as opposed to just he setback temp, which it may not reach)?

Does the burner run continuously during the recovery ramp, or is it turning on & off?

If you have the outdoor reset option on the new boiler that might slow the recovery ramp, or not. Read the manual, if you have it. (Or even if you don't.)

The boiler itself is more than 2x oversized for most homes in the US, and should be able to deliver reasonable setback recovery times if set up correctly.

If it doesn't have the outdoor reset option set the high limit at LEAST as high as the minimum required for continuous burn with the given radiation. If that's not possible due to limited radiation size, crank it up to something like 210F but set the differential to the max (30F).

It's unlikely that your house is losing (98,000 BTU/hr DOE output x 3 hours recovery time= ) 296,000 BTU in an 8 hour setback, which would be an average loss of 37,000 BTU/hr, which is about the heat loss rate of my house at 0F outdoor temps when it's 68F indoors. Is that how cold it is at night in your neighborhood these days? Do you sleep with the windows open?
 
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Chris_in_MA

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Dana,

Thank you for getting back to me. Some additional info below and response to your questions. I have been reading around a lot so I included information I have seen requested in other threads so might be too much info. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Additional Info:

House is in Southern Mass
House built in 1983.
Garrison Colonial.
4BR.
2200sq/ft. + 480sq ft addition over garage not being used.
4 zones (1st floor, 2nd floor, Unused Addition over garage, DHW with 50GAL HTP Supertor)
Addition was there last year also. There is 24ft of baseboard in that room. Room is insulated and temp kept at 51 as its not being used.
Previous system had no hot water tank and one circulator with taco valves. New system has 4 circulators.
Every window in the house was replaced this summer with Simonton 5050 replacement windows.
Basement is fully insulated and finished minus heat/cooling.


How much of what type of radiation do you have?

baseboard
1st floor - 67ft
2nd floor - 69ft
Addition over garage - 24ft


What is the high-limit set to on the new boiler?
180 degrees
Pre-purge is set to 2 minutes.
High limit differential is set to 10.
Low limit set for 140 degrees
Post purge is disabled.
All 4 zones connected two the first zone on boiler and connected through two Taco SR503 zone relays with no priority enabled.
HW tank aqua-stat set for 130 degrees.
Pressure gauge on tank reads between 32-35


What was the burner size on the old boiler? (And high-limit temp, if known.)
Not 100% on the BTU but my mass saves documentation says RS110 for the old boiler and MFG date was 1982

How cold does it actually get over night (as opposed to just he setback temp, which it may not reach)?

I set the thermostat to 58 at night and 66 for wake up with the new boiler as I have a baby in the house this winter. Last year though I did 55 at night and 67 during the day.
House usually gets all the way down to 59 on the colder nights.


Does the burner run continuously during the recovery ramp, or is it turning on & off?
During recovery the burner comes on and off. Gets to temp in about 9 minutes. Then cycles on/off running for about 4 minutes each run.

If you have the outdoor reset option on the new boiler that might slow the recovery ramp, or not. Read the manual, if you have it.
I have the outdoor reset option but it is not installed yet.

The boiler itself is more than 2x oversized for most homes in the US, and should be able to deliver reasonable setback recovery times if set up correctly.
 

Dana

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You have 160' of baseboard total, which at an AWT of 180F would deliver about 96,000 BTU/hr to the zones. So if you crank the high-limit to about 190-200F it should deliver a nearly continuous burn, assuming all zones are calling for heat.

If only the 24' zone is calling for heat it's going to short-cycle the boiler even at high temp.

With the high-limit cranked up with only one of the 67'or 69 ' zones is calling for heat it will be cycling on/off at a ~40% duty cycle, which is why you want to set the differential to the maximum (30F), to keep the burn times sorta-reasonable. If both of those zones are calling for heat at the same time (and not the zone over the garage) it'll bump the duty cycle to about 80%, which would be about 80,000 BTU/hr of heat going into the house, which should be MORE than plenty. There's no way you'd ever NEED that much heat output. Your heat load at the 99% outside design temp (about +10F for much of SE MA) is something between 33-43,000 BTU/hr, depending on your air leakage rates.

If you tweak-in the heat-purge times and drop the output temperature 170F with a 30 degree differential it could still heat your house, on design day, and would be a bit more efficient than letting it crank away at a 200F high-limit. If someone set it up for even lower temps that could affect the recovery ramp. But for now crank it up to 200F or so and verify that it's delivering nearly continuous burns when both the first and second floors are calling for heat. If it's not heating up the house, right now, it has to be set at a much lower high-limit.

Start with the high limit set pretty high, and with the biggest differential, and drop it 10F at a time until the burn times on a single 68' zone are 5 minuts or shorter, then bump it back up 5F. That's about as good as you're going to do, efficiency wise.

Mind-you, the smaller MPO-IQ 84 would have been capable of delivering 74,000 BTU/hr, but at a higher, more efficient duty cycle. It would be a better match overall, since it's "only" about 2x oversized for your actual heat load, and could operate at a duty cycle higher than 50% with just one of the main zones calling for heat.

For reference, my house is about 2400' (+ 1500' of basement) in Worcester, built 60 years before yours was and with crummier windows (antique single-panes + 1980s vintage storms), but it may be more air-tight than yours (?) due to ongoing air sealing efforts. I'm radiation limited to less than 45,000 BTU/hr, and have no problems heating the place, but it would take a couple of hours to raise the whole house fully 10F when it's about freezing outside, much longer when it's in single digits. The programmable thermostat on the main non-radiant zone is set to turn up starting about an hour before people are getting up, and it's usually satisfied by the time the alarm goes off. On the bedroom micro-zones setting it to step up about a half-hour before is sufficient for the wake-up, even if it doesn't reach the setpoint temp until later. (It turns out that a rising temperature is a more powerful mammalian wake-up trigger than rising the light levels.)
 

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Dana,

Thank you for the help. I moved the temperature up to 200 degrees and the differential to 30 as you suggested and it definitely seems to be performing better. The last two mornings the recovery time has been about 50 minutes or so with both zones calling for heat. Amazing what a difference those two settings make.

If you have some time I have another question that maybe you can answer, or might be best suited for a new thread. I had Mitsubishi Hyper heat mini-splits installed throughout the house for AC over the summer (7 total). I was told by the HVAC guy that they can provide heat down to -10 degrees and that they are more efficient than oil down to about 30 degrees. However, I have not tried them yet as my oil/boiler guy insisted oil was more efficient at any temp. I seem to be getting conflicting information.

I understand that it depends on oil/electric prices so its not an exact science, but I was wondering what your stance was?

Thank you.
 
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Dana

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First, seven Hyperheats (even the smallest ones) are only a solution to the installers boat-payment problems, not a heating/cooling solution. The heating capacity at +5F (colder than Cambridge's 99% outside design temp) of seven FH09s (the smallest individual hyper heat) to deliver over 75,000 BTU/hr into the house- more heat than what you're getting out of your baseboards. Tell me the exact model(s), and I can tell you more.

Then efficiency is one thing, cost is another. Efficeincy of the boiler is no better than 0.87. Even at -10F the efficiency of a HyperHeat going at it's maximum rate is about 1.8, or about 2x as efficient from a energy-in to energy out basis. So I'll assume the HVAC guy was talking about cost.

If sized correctly for the loads you'll get a seasonal coefficient of performance (COP) between 3.0-3.5 with the latest-greatest Mitsubishis. That means for every kwh of power used, you get 3-3.5kwh out as heat.

Converting that to BTUs, at 3412 BTU /kwh, a COP of 3.0 means you're getting 3.0 x 3412= 10,236 BTU of heat into the house. Normalizing that to kwh per million BTUs (MMBTU), that's 1,000,000/10,236= 98 kwh/MMBTU. Assuming wintertime rates of 22 cents (don't know what you're actually paying in Cambridge- probably less than that), the cost of heat is then 98 x $0.22= $21.56/MMBTU.

A gallon of heating oil contains 138,000 BTU of source fuel energy, and burned at 87% efficiency delivers 0.87 x 138,000 = 120,060 BTU/gallon of heat into the heating system (less distribution losses, less pumping & control power use). Normalizing that to MMBTU, it's 1,000,000/120,060= 8.33 gallons/MMBTU

At this week's average price of $2.33/gallon, the cost of heat is (best case, not counting power use or distribution losses) is $2.33 x 8.33= $19.41 , or about 10% cheaper, assuming it uses no power (not true), and has no distribution losses (also not true.)

So at a COP of 3 it's roughly a wash with 22 cent electricity, cheaper to heat with the ductless all season at 20 cents or lower electricity.

But that average COP includes operation when it's colder than +15F outside, when the COP is going to be 2.5 or less (again assuming correct sizing to the loads). The exact outdoor temperature at which there's a crossover in operational cost varies with the size of the mini-splits relative to the load. At part load the COPs can be quite high, and at 30F the COP would typically be about 3.5-4, with a clear cost advantage.

When it's in the 40s outside the COPs are north of 4 as long as it's still modulating more than cycling on/off. If the capacity is so ridiculously oversized for the heat load that it's cycling any time it's warmer than 30F your seasonal average COP is going to be less than 3.0. So if you have multiple units, it's worth turning some off until they're really needed.

Another factor with mini-splits that kills efficiency is setbacks. Any savings from temperature setbacks gets more than eaten up by lower efficiency operation when it's running full blast on the recovery ramp. Unlike an oil boiler, a deep overnight setback uses MORE energy than just leaving it at temperature(!), and it's quite a bit more. If you set them back 8F overnight every night you won't do better than a seasonal average COP of 2.2-2.5. But since you have so MANY of them it's clearly micro-zoned. Set the bedroom mini-splits to your preferred sleeping temp and leave them, set the living space mini-splits at the temperature you like during the day and leave them. Rooms that are used less often, leave off. Most houses can be heated/cooled reasonably with 2-4 mini-split heads.

Since the room over the garage would short-cycle the boiler, consider only heating it with the mini-split, even when it's 0F outside unless it just can't keep up.
 

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Wow, that is a lot of information. I have talked to the guy that put the boiler in, the HVAC guy that did the mini splits and my oil guy and I never got anything more than vague answers. I really appreciate it.

As to what I got, I have MXZ3C30NAHZ with MSZ-FH09NA (room over garage), MZ-FH12NA (living room 1st floor), MSZ-GE06NA (bedroom). MXZ4C36NAHZ with MZ-FH12NA (Dinging room 1st floor), MSZ-FH12NA (finished basement), MSZ-GE06NA (bedroom), MSZ-GE06NA (bedroom).

I went with the mini-splits as opposed to ducted central AC because I have no duct work and the duct work proposed by multiple HVAC companies that gave me the quotes was very invasive. 18inches of lost ceiling height in the finished basement, loss of our pantry on first floor to duct work, and loss of our walk up attic that we use for storage right now.


Its looking like I should have done more of my own homework before these two large purchases. I got 3 separate quotes for the boiler and 4 for the HVAC and all quotes were very similar in equipment all suggesting the same mpo-iq 115 boiler and 7 unit mini-split setup (one guy suggested fujitsu though). None of the sales guys that came out for quotes were here for more than 20min or so and each had an estimate within an hour or so. I am guessing none of them did the kind of calculations you did so I appreciate the help you are willing to offer.

It sounds like the cost difference at the moment is negligible but if oil spikes back up over $4/gal the mini splits might be the better option. I will try the mini splits for a bit and see how well they work, leaving them at a set temp is easy to do as the control they come with doesn't provide scheduling anyways.

Thank you
-Chris
 

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With the new-improved higher temp operation of the boiler your standby losses will be higher, unless you program in some post-purge time on the controls. For a beginning point start with 5 minutes of post purge. Turn up the thermostats and watch until the boiler gets up close to 200F, then turn them down so that the call for heat goes away, and take notes on how much lower the boiler temp is at the end of a 5-minute post-purge. You may want to add some pre-purge too.

One of my office-mates lives a mile or three down Mass.Ave. from you in Arlington, and had mini-splits installed in his ~1700-1800' 1920s bungalow this past summer and had all sorts of crazy proposals come in, several multi-splits witha head in every room, etc. most of which were pretty ridiculous. I walked him through an I=B=R method heat load calculation to push back on them with, and ended up with three separate mini-splits- an FH09 in the kitchen (which is way oversized, but it at least modulates down to ~1600 BTU/hr out, and will modulate-mostly), and FH12 to cover the more open dining/living/parlor room s on the first floor, and an FH12 in at the top of the stairwell to cover the 2 bedrooms, office and bath. The bedroom doors have to be left open during colder/hotter weather to keep them comfortable, but a head per room would have been ridiculously oversized for the room loads, and he couldn't find a contractor willing to install a mini-duct cassette to split the output between rooms. (It takes about 9" of headroom for the cassette, the ducts can be smaller.) His solution is a bit oversized on heating capacity for his sub-25,000 BTU/hr @ 10F heat load, but not ridiculously so, and still modulating in an efficient range.

Your 2.5 ton multi-split plus a standalone FH09 for the bonus room you don't really use may have sufficient total capacity for your likely loads, but doesn't support enough heads for the way it was split out. It can deliver 28,600 BTU/hr @ +5F, so it might be close, depending on just how tight the house is. But with a mini-duct cassette, or two it might have worked with just that unit, different heads/cassettes. The 1-ton head in the basement is probably oversized for the basement load on capacity but may have been an OK choice for the higher throw of the bigger blower. The minimum modulated output at +47F is 7200 BTU/hr, which is the maximum output of a single GE06 .

The 3 ton unit is capable of delivering 45,000 BTU/hr @ +5F, which is more than your likely heat load. (My 1923 sub-code insulated 2400' antique has a heat load of about 35K @ +5F, not counting the basement. With the ~1500' of insulated basement it comes in at about 40K, if I decided to heat it fully to 70F.) It's minimum output at +47F is 7200 BTU/hr, which is the maximum output of a GE06 head. So the combined output of the two compressors at +5F is 73,600 BTU/hr which is probably something like 2x your whole house load.

The combined cooling capacity is similarly oversized. You probably have 1.5-2 tons of cooling load, and fully 5.5 tons of compressor capacity.

For heating the question then becomes what the actual zone loads are when it's in the 40s out doors. At +47F the minimum output for coninuous operation of both units is 7200 + 7200 = 14, 400 BTU/hr, which may be approximately the whole-house heat load at 35F. Your whole house heat load at +47 may be even be less than 7200. Since the temps these days are in a good range to experiment, see if you can keep the place comfortable with one of the systems (and the boiler) turned completely off, since it would then have more modulating room. Only you can figure out which bedrooms and other rooms are important to keep at a precise temp, and which ones can be allowed to run a bit warm or a bit cool. Sometimes it's better to run some rooms a bit on the warm side to allow it to heat the adjacent spaces to comfortable levels, but you can play around with it a bit. When the temps drop below 25F you'll likely have to run both systems, but when it's that cold out they would both be modulating.

To advise any more precisely than this would require room-by-room load calculations, but you can probably figure out what really works and what doesn't. I suspect the one to turn off would be the 2.5 tonner, since it's serving the garage room that you don't really use. You may have to play around with bumping up the temps the actively heated rooms to make the others comfortable, but try it out. With a more open layout you may be pleasantly surprised, even on nights when it drops below freezing. Ideally you'd want all of the active heads humming along a low speed almost constantly during the day, maybe mid-speed at dawn, which would be an indication that the compressor & heads are both modulating well in a high-efficiency operating range.
 

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Thanks. The room above the garage while not currently being used is going to be our Master bedroom. We just haven't moved into it yet as we havent picked out furniture. Once we move into that room, the 2.5 ton unit will probably be the one I try leaving on, as that will cover our master bedroom, 1st floor living room/kitchen and babies bedroom. The baby needs the heat the most as she gets cold very easily and does not sleep comfortably under 75 degrees in the room. We had been running an electric space heater in that room to keep it warmer.

I read about post-purge but don't think I can do it how my boiler is currently wired. All zones are connected through a Taco SR503. I looked into swapping out the SR503 with an SR503-EXP model with PowerPort adapter for post purge. I wasn't sure if the $350 investment to get post purge would be worth it though. I was reading also, that even with that adapter the post purge only works for the designated priority zone. I think my existing setup could be rewired also to use the second zone on the boiler itself, but again I think I would get post purge to priority zone only. Would it be worth it to have the boiler rewired and replace the ZR?

One of my friends that does commercial plumbing/hvac actually made a similar suggestion to you, that I should have gone with one unit on the second floor and left the doors open. He also said I should have done no more than 2 heads to a compressor due to efficiency etc. He made a lot of suggestions I probably should have listened to but I went with the advice of the 4 other companies that supposedly specialize exclusively in HVAC. He also told me the MPO-IQ 115 was over sized for my house like you did. Maybe I will listen to him on my next project. I try not to ask for favors from friends though.
 

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I haven't studied the MPO-IQ manual very much, and have never set one up myself, but if it can be set up to post-purge all calls for heat into an indirect hot water heater priority zone that would be just fine. Lowering the standby temperature of the boiler a few 10s of degrees makes a real difference in operating efficiency of an oversized boiler. If your commercial HVAC guy has that all figured out, it's worth paying for him to do it, assuming you continue to heat primarily with the boiler.

But even if it's impossible to set it up for post-purge you should be able to program in some pre-purge time. That isn't quite as effective as post purge, but it does still lower the average operating temp of the boiler, which reduces distribution & standby losses.

Without post-purge you probably won't be able to hit the AFUE test numbers at this level of oversizing, especially when parking the boiler at 200F between burns. Start backing off the high limit temp 10F at a time, and measure the burn times when just one of the bigger zones is calling for heat. If the burn times are shorter than 5 minutes, start bumping the high-limit back up 5F at at time until that is achieved. With 5 minute minimum burn times it'll do about as well as it can short of post-purging the boiler down to a much lower temp. But with 3-4 minute burns it'll be losing a large chunk of efficiency to cycling losses- you're trading higher standby & distribution losses against those cycling losses.
 

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So just figured I would give an update now that I have had some time to tinker and the cold weather is upon us.

I settled the boiler in at 190 degrees with the differential set to 30 degrees which is the maximum. I have a 10 minute pre-purge setup but it only pre-purges for a couple minutes before it hits the lower limit and boiler kicks on. I am doing a 9 degree setback at night and during day and it seems to recover in about 45min - 1hr depending on the outside temp.

I have been turning off the boiler once it gets the house up to temperature and using the mini splits more. One 12k btu mini-split on the first floor does an admirable job of keeping the house at temp. If I set it for 68 degrees, the room its in and the adjoining room sit at about 67-68 while the rest of the first floor sits at about 64-65 and the second floor sits at about 60-62. With both of the 12k units on the first floor running the whole first floor stays nice and warm and the second stays fairly comfortable as well (albeit with a few more hot/cold spots than we were used to with the baseboard).

The mini-splits in the bedrooms work extremely fast. Before we go to bed we will turn them on and within about 5 minutes the rooms (170 sq ft) will go from 62 to about 72. Ill set them to turn off after about an hour and we sleep nice and comfortably. In the morning, my wife will use the remote to turn it back on so its toasty in the room as she gets ready and it gets the room from about 58 to 72 in less than 10min. So while we do not use them all night long or for extended periods, the wife and family/guests love how quickly they get the room up to temp in the evening and morning. I think they would be even better if I could use traditional programmable thermostats with them but after all the money we have already spent, I cant afford the Mitsubishi adapter kits AND thermostats. I might do them one at a time over the years.

I wish they had a thermostat that could be programmed to handle multiple heating sources, as right now its a manual process for me to switch back and forth between the mini-splits and boiler.

The wife is still getting used to it, as a couple times she turned on the mini-splits without turning off the boiler which seems to just short cycle the boiler like crazy.

I will see what my oil/electric usage looks like after this season and I may end up investing in a new taco zr to take advantage of post purge.

Thanks again for all of the help.
 

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Using setback approaches with mini-splits nearly always INCREASES the amount of power use. Rather than turning them off and letting the bedrooms drop to 58F and cranking it up to 72F in 5-10 minutes, setting the them a 65-68F (whatever temp you prefer to sleep) would use less energy due to the much higher efficiency they have when idling along at minimum modulation compared to that 5-10 minute burst at maximum power. When it's 35F outside the efficiency difference between minimum and maximum can be 2x or more. Odds are pretty good that leaving it at 68F would have it duty-cycling on/off with fairly long on-cycles, but it would be good to measure both the on & off cycles it takes to maintain that temp when it's 30-35F outside. If it's short-cycling the mini-split efficiency takes a bit of an efficiency hit too, but nothing like the difference between min-modulation and full-speed.
 
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