Need the experts to verify this plan

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by jgbfl, Dec 28, 2006.

  1. jgbfl

    jgbfl New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Florida
    Hello from the noob,

    I am finishing up the construction of my new home here on the west coast of Florida.
    I would lke opinions from you regarding my plans for my on site domestic well water supply.

    * 120' 4'' well w/1hp submersible pump set at 95'
    * 8' static head level
    * Well produces +/- 25gpm
    * Water quality is good, no iron but typ florida sulfer content
    * Well drawn water will pass thorugh a large DE filter to a 250gal aeretor storage tank
    * 2nd submersible pump hanging within storage tank/to 60gal pre-charged bladder tank/Kentico water softener/1 1/4'' cycle stop valve/back check valve
    * I plan on installing a high & low water level float switch in the storage tank

    My questions would be, do they make a bracket that supports the submersible pump located in the storage tank? I guess that if the pump in the well hangs on the drop pipe, I can be assured that the hanging the 2nd pump in the tank would be trouble free?

    What would you recommend for a chloinator? I'm thinking about chlorinating the water in/at the storage tank. Drinking/cooking water will be passing through a RO unit & carbon filter. Chlorination would at a very minimum, just to help keep bacteria count down.

    Thanks for any support.
  2. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    I've done both a hanging pump and a horizontal pump laying on the bottom. Some people use a sleeve to get the water to flow past the pump to cool it, I've had no problems without a sleeve.

    Rancher

    What does the DE filter do for you?
  3. jgbfl

    jgbfl New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Florida
    "What does the DE filter do for you?"

    The DE filter is mainly for any sediment that may enter the system. In my area, we have type C soils which are mostly sand.

    The filter came off a very large commercial pool, it was free and I can backwash in lieu of changing cartrige filters.

    Another point, after reading several threads regarding the CSV, I'm thinking I wait till later to consider this valve. Seem like my water usage may not dictate one. Maybe after I install irrigation should I look into it.

    Any thoughts?
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I wouldn't do it that way. And I certainly wouldn't use a DE filter (ever for potable water treatment). And if I did, it wouldn't be between a submersible pump and its pressure switch; thats a real bad idea and can cause loss of the pump down the well. I also wouldn't use the aeration/storage tank. Or an alternating twin tank softener unless I needed softened water on a 24 hour basis (like shift workers do) but, if I did, it certainly would not be the ery proprietary water powered unGodly high priced one you mentioned! I also wouldnt use a RO unless I had a proven need for one like arsenic, lead, nitrates etc..

    So... without knowing your water analysis data... I would suggest a smaller hp pump (a 1/2 hp 13 gpm is more than enough for most homes) in the well unless you are running irrigation. Then a CSV, a small captive air precharged pressure tank, my inline erosion pellet chlorinator and its special mixing/retention tank (eqivalent to a regular 120 retention tank), a correctly sized for the peak demand water use Centaur carbon filter and a correctly sized metered/demand initiated/regenerated regular softener with the Clack WS-1 control valve.

    The chlorine takes care of the iron, manganese, H2S (sulfur) and all types of bacteria. The Centaur removes any dirt the chlorine causes and the chlorine (smell and taste) and then you have no need for a separate drinking water filter. Then, the softener only has to deal with the hardness so no fouled resin problems.

    You don't need filtration before a pressure tank, or aeration AND chlorine and the aeration can't kill bacteria or algea etc. but can cause it and you are in FL and this stuff is probably going to be installed outside... So you then wouldn't need the second pump and the means of controling it. If you needed a twin tank softener, it would be a correctly sized (each tank) for your peak demand gpm Fleck 9100.

    You'll spend a lot less money, have a much simpler system with constant pressure and treatment equipment that really works and with next to no maintenance other than adding salt and pellets periodically.

    Questions? :)
  5. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I agree with Gary on the smaller pump, the CSV, the smaller bladder tank and no aerator. Gary can also save you a fortune on Water Filtration.

    The only thing I would do different is instead of chlorine, I have an air pump system that takes out the sulphur under pressure simply by adding air to a galvanized tank. We have hundreds of them around here and several that were sold over the internet. We are also located on the West coast of Florida. That's how I know they work so good. We have more than our fair share of sulphur odor.

    Your aerator, and 1 horse pump are both over kill. Unless you already have the pump installed or you have a sprinkler system in place that depends on that pump, drop down to a 1/2hp 10 gpm. For some reason around here when a well is drilled, the mentality is to install a 1 hp pump no matter what the usage. We are one of a very few who even sell 1/2hp subs. They last longer because of less cycling cost less to operate.

    bob...
  6. jgbfl

    jgbfl New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Florida
    The plan is to have irrigation at a later date, hence the 1hp pump.
    My intent was to serve the irrigation system directly from the well pump.

    The storage tank is aerator type so it is not under pressure. Tank fills up on demand only via a float switch. I'm not sure why I wouldn't want to filter the water with the DE filter I already have?
    I have already bought the pumps so I'm kinda stuck with hp. They are multi stage pumps, which I think they will ramp up in volocity according to usage, correct me if I am wrong.

    With a lot of research, I was convinced that a larger bladder tank was better then one under sized. The water softener was purchased a long time ago and I am bringing it from the rental house I currently live in. Softening is a must as the water is very hard and it only softens water as needed.

    Discuss.....
  7. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Doesn't sound like you need us. You've already made up your mind.

    bob...
  8. jgbfl

    jgbfl New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Florida
    Bob, I guess I have for the most part. Plumbing/wells systems is not a field I am well versed in. I guess I am asking these questions of you all to reinforce what my plans are. I am looking to try to construct a system that will be as trouble free as possible. It looks like from all of you that there is nothing terribly wrong with my layout. It is unfortinate that I only discovered this site 2 days ago. I do thank you all for taking the time to reply to my posts. I do appreciate it.

    Gary, you said you would never use a DE filter for poptable water, could you elaborate? Thank you again.
    Jeff
  9. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Submersible pumps are all multistage. They don't "ramp up in velocity according to usage". They put out a lot of pressure at low usage and waste a lot of power if you throttle a large pump to low flow. The pump should be matched to well capacity, demand, and pressure requirements.

    A diatomaceous earth (DE) filter doesn't require a change of cartridges, but it needs to be backwashed and the diatomaceous earth needs to be disposed of (goes with backwash water) and replenished at each backwash.
  10. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Very true, and that 1 horse power pump won't even come close to backwashing even the smallest DE Filter.

    bob...
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I've been doing water treatment on well waters for 20 years. Everything used in a potable water system must be certified NSF Standard 61. Pool equipment is not. And as I've said, the pressure tank does not need filtered water. Plus you don't want anything between a pump and its pressure switch.

    You have 2-3 of us 'pros' telling you things that you should listen to and change your plan accordingly. If you don't do so now, you'll spend more money fixing things later and suffer for some time until you do. I think you need to reread my first reply and seriously rethink your present plan. What I suggested is the least expensive and the simplest system there is. Since you are doing irrigation, you really need a CSV and small pressure tank; it gives you constant water pressure and seriously extends the life of your pump while it can reduce the electric bill.

    An atmospheric aeration tank is going to take serious maintenance and allows for biological growth. In the system I suggested, the irrigation would be teed off just after the pressure tank.
  12. Raucina

    Raucina Previous member

    Messages:
    515
    Another point, after reading several threads regarding the CSV, I'm thinking I wait till later to consider this valve. Seem like my water usage may not dictate one. Maybe after I install irrigation should I look into it.[/I]

    Actually, just forget it. Take the csv money and put it into another pressurized storage tank. Put some air in it as Sbump suggests.

    Get a pool for the DE filter.

    Use the aeration tank for wine or beer making.

    Keep the second pump for back up. With 25 GPM and a 1HP 25 gpm pump you have all you need for irrigation or emergency without any storage.

    You can backwash any NSF filter with a bit of creative plumbing - especially if sand of large particle size.

    If you and yours do not have panic attacks or scream and dial 911 when the shampoo is in the hair and the pressure takes a miniscule burp, which I would hope is 99% of us, then you do not need the magical Cycle [maybe-perhaps] reducing valve - which still gives pressure fluctuation on the start side.

    If you want to discuss extended pump life due to reduced cycles then ask rancher about his pump that cycles 600 times per day.
  13. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,522
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    filter

    DE filters use organic skeletons for the filter media and are not really designed to operate at water system pressures. If you are going to use it for potable water you would need medical grade Diatomaceous earth for recharging it. Use it for a swimming pool and get a standard filter which is similar to a water softener tank.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Water pumps are sized by the gpm and pressure required at the total dynamic head of the system. Once you know those figures, then you select the horses (hp) to get the job done. Most people don't know that and buy a pump based on the hp only...

    Water lines have a maximum for the velocity of the water they transport. If the velocity is too high, internal plumbing erosion corrosion, which is fatal to the plumbing, is quite probable. Copper and plastics are usually stated as no more than 6 ft/sec. When a pump runs, the output is gpm which is dictated by the pressure, type and size of pipe, not the velocity which must be limited by the applied pressure or the pipe ID (may be too small).

    Attempting to run your irrigation off the pump in the well... and control that pump by a float or flow switch (controlling the electric/power to the pump) in the aeration tank, isn't going to work without a pressure tank and switch.

    The atmospheric storage (aeration) tank will grow 'things' in it, especially if it is in sunlight. And the water will be equal to the air temp or higher. The tank and plumbing also has to be protected from freezing, bugs'n critters. You do not want iron, manganese, or any type of many different types of bacteria found in ground water going into the tank or the maintenance is way higher and more frequent and expensive than if filtered/treated water was sent into the tank. And then you'll still have every problem listed above except the iron and manganese.

    Since you aren't doing the irrigation now BUT bought the pump for when you do it and will use it and seriously short cycle and shorten its life until then, why not the CSV and small pressure tank now in the design and installation phase of construction? Because you're sold on the aeration tank due to the H2S... Using the tank will cause water quality problems and then more water treatment equipment after the aeration tank.

    You should get a water analysis before you do the aeration tank or go any farther into this.
  15. vaplumber

    vaplumber Guest

    With this kind of water supply, why do you want a storage tank? Forget the tank, talk to someone here about water treatment, and put the extra pump you bought back for a spare. Come on, Im from an area where 8 to 15 gallon wells supply as many as 5 homes, no storage tanks, and 10 gpm pumps with no complaints! I could run an entire sub division off of 25 gpm! Dont use a de pool filter. Trust me from practice. The pool filter is designed for flow, not pressure, and even at 25 gpm, you will never match what flow you'll need for efective filtration, and forget completely about an even remotely good back wash!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2007
  16. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I fully agree with the above two replies.

    bob...
  17. jgbfl

    jgbfl New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Florida
    You know, this proposed design was based apon the typical system design installed by many well/plumbing contractors in my area.

    I figured that it was a good idea to follow suit and that aerator/staorage tank was the way to go. I do have a pressurized bladder tank that I could use in place of the storage tank. It certainly would simplify the installation of the irrigation system later on.

    If any of you have a link to a system design on the web, I will investigate that resource.
    BTW, the piping size from well to the house is 1 1/4'' cpvc piping. I have 90' of pipe from the pump to the well seal, and another 70'+/- of piping to the house. Thank you for your guidance.
    Jeff
  18. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I can't believe a well drilling contractor would use DE filters in a water system. The aerator tanks are old technology. I haven't installed one in 20 years. We use an air pump and galvanized tank to remove the sulphur odor and it's all done under pressure. No bacteria growth or dead frogs or roaches floating in your drinking water. This is a sketch of the system we use.

    bob...

    Attached Files:

  19. Raucina

    Raucina Previous member

    Messages:
    515
    good diagram but two questions -

    If no connection to the atmosphere, where exactly does the sulphur end up at? Are we talking hydrogen sulfide? By aerating in an "open" tank I see the gas evaporating. In a closed tank it becomes what or goes where? Elemental sulphur that settles to the bottom?

    Check valve near tank - I thought you well guys didnt like that?

    Perhaps millions of homes in California have "open" tanks for storage without any detectable bacterial problems. It seems that sealing such tanks and addding 1 micron or less filters to the air intake-release structure would negate any issues of air borne contaminants.
  20. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    good diagram but two questions -

    If no connection to the atmosphere, where exactly does the sulphur end up at? Are we talking hydrogen sulfide? By aerating in an "open" tank I see the gas evaporating. In a closed tank it becomes what or goes where? Elemental sulphur that settles to the bottom? The air release valve on the side of the tank. It has a float that will let the excess air and any gas out when the water gets down to the float. This happens just before the pump kicks on.

    Check valve near tank - I thought you well guys didnt like that? This check valve is only necessary if someone has a hose bibb on the bladder tank. Without the check valve with a bladder tank in front of the galvanized tank, someone opening the hosebibb would let all the air out of the galvanized tank through the hose bibb.

    Perhaps millions of homes in California have "open" tanks for storage without any detectable bacterial problems. It seems that sealing such tanks and addding 1 micron or less filters to the air intake-release structure would negate any issues of air borne contaminants. The Air Pump has it's own foam rubber filter on the inlet side. So far after hundreds of sales and installations, no bacterial problems have shown up. But in the aerators that are still in use here in Florida, the water in those tanks is disgusting to say the least. Dead frogs, lizards, roaches and algae of several colors growing in them. The ones with chlorinators keep the algae down and help to turn the dead critters a soft white color.

    bob...

    [​IMG]
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