need some advice on augmenting a free flowing spring

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by catfish, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    My property sits on sand it is sand as deep as you can dig with a back hoe. there is a ravine about 30 ft deep with three springs running in it two are just mush no free flowing stream but one flows out of the ground in a steady stream. at the point where all three of these come together it makes a small stream abou3' wide by 2-3" deep (plenty of water). I have dug down in the middle and just to the side of the stream with post hole diggers as far as I can reach and it is still the same sand. I have thought about driving points down to the same level up hill of one of these three spring veins(the show ground depressions running into this ravine.) But want some advise.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You didn't say what you intend to do with this water. If you want to use it in a house, you will need water treatment equipment because you can not trust spring water for any quality other than it's clear, doesn't smell and doesn't have anything floating in it. And in some locations, you probably wouldn't be allowed to do this.
  3. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Other than bacteria I am certain there are no other elementals unless naturally occuring. I live in Rural East Texas and it is very undevoloped population density of around 1-3 people per square mile. all of the land aound me for several miles is wooded so no fertilizer problems.
    I am just trying to figure out the best way to drill/drive a well up stream/vein from the ground outlet. As far as Regulations, there may be laws covering sprngs and wells in Texas but they would be pretty simple and with no inforcement. Lucky for me Texas is one of the few states that still doesn't try to control every aspect of its citizens lives. Any practical trade/skill info useful to getting my end desire would be greatly appreciated.
  4. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    have the water tested b 4 you do anything...haven't you seen the western movies where the animals are laying dead all around the spring fead watering hole...:)
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    ummmm I thought that some of the resident well drillers here would reply but I see none did. I can't tell you about drilling a well by hand but I've seen a fair number of springs with water collection and a pump/pressure tank.

    You won't be able to keep out critters that live in water, or airborne or water type insects, varmints and such out of the water and you'll have a tough time controlling humidity and algae maybe in a spring house so it should be all concrete or other masonry. And you'd need to be able to shut off/divert the inlet water to be able to clean and sanitize the reservoir. You may be able to use Google Images to find pictures of a spring house.
  6. sammyhydro11

    sammyhydro11 Previous member

    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Catfish, sent me a message in regards to this post.

    Driving a well point up hill from a stream means that the water coming out of the well will be groundwater and not surface water from the stream. Critters and airborne contaminants will not be an issue. A common groundwater contaminant with shallow wells is high levels of free Co2 that will make your water corrosive. Water wells in Texas are regulated and you will need to consult with your health department about where the well can be drilled and if permits need to be pulled.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yeah, I was talking about a spring there Sammy, not a well. BTW, I refuse to answer PMs and tell the person to post in the forum so others can learn.
  8. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    Once you tap into a (spring) it becomes a well. Any source of water that is collected for any use, be it privet or other wise, becomes a well. Dams and lakes do not fall under this rule. They fall under the river authority.

    Thus, bound by the laws that govern all wells.


    Travis
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  9. sammyhydro11

    sammyhydro11 Previous member

    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    It was pretty clear that the guy wanted to drive well points. I was just a little lost with explaining how a spring house should be built and where to go to view images of one. These set ups are a bad move for health purposes. Totally not recommended for drinking purposes.

    Anybody can feel free to send me a private message whenever they like. I will be more than happy to answer any of your water well questions. Or you can post your questions directly on the forum.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
  10. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    thank you hydro. I am trying to figure out the best and most productive means of geting my well in above the spring so as to be potable. this water is the same spring system that ozarka water uses for ther Nestle pure life brand. It has about only 27 ppm tds. they actually batch minerals and add it prior to putting the nestle pure life lable on it cause with out it, it has no taste. as for all others posting here, I am looking for well advise not leagle. We Texans own our own property and do what we will and don't take too much concern over restrictive gov. agencies. that being said my family and children will be drinking this water so I want to make sure I do everything right. If you care to share your knowledge with me that would be great.

    Ps. I do want to have a 4" casing in the ground but havent figured out what would be a method other than washing it in with high pressure. I also dont quite know to do that if my casing is to be perforated at the bottom as a screen. I do want high return on this well and thing I can achieve it as the spring runs at ground at about a 5gal bucket per second. thanks for your info. Catfish.
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    A spring is nothing more than groundwater finding a way up to the surface of the ground and flowing away. Putting a well in the immediate area of a spring, which you say this is, means the water could be contaminated 'upstream' of the spring for some distance because of the water on the surface of the ground, at the spring. And moreso as you pump water out of the well because the spring water (on the ground) is going to be in the well head protection area of the well. That means the spring/surface water is in the cone of depression of the well, and your geology is sand that has no resistance to water flow from the surface down thru the sand and into the well.

    And since you have a backhoe, it could be much easier to dig and build a spring pit than put in a 4" casing without a drilling rig, if that you can do that by hand.

    Unless Sammy or some other driller here has used a PM to tell you how to put your 4" well in this area, I don't they will tell you how or that they think you should, or that you'll get potable water, but we'll see.

    BTW, I'm from PA and outside the cities, many people are just as independent as Texans and history shows they have been since before there was a Texas. I've also been a Texan for awhile, (spent some time in Livingston and Uncertain) until last July and I'm all for self reliance and independence from government intrusion and regulations. At heart I'm still a Texan and so is my wife; except in the summer. So I'm all for what you want to do. If you do this well and the law makes you dismantle it, you would have been better off with a spring house; I don't think that is illegal anywhere (outside of cities). I'm sorry if you think my posts were unhelpful, they weren't meant to be anything but helpful, including this one.

    I just remembered this... nstead of washing the casing in, you need to make a 'sand sucker' that fits inside the 4". And yes, you need screening, and maybe a gravel pack outside the screening. Here's a place all about what you want to do, I used to post there a few years ago.

    http://www.voy.com/102731/
  12. sammyhydro11

    sammyhydro11 Previous member

    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Just because your independent from regulations doesn't mean that something shouldn't be done in a manner that will prevent you and your family from being sick. I'm done with this thread because of what it is going to turn into. My professional advice to you is, stay away from the spring house for safety sake.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
  13. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    thank you for the info everyone. as for what this is about to turn into I don't know what you mean. this spring is artesian or how ever you spell it. I own about three thousand acres around this springs and there is no chance of contamination from upstream that I can tell. I do not want or trust a spring house/ box etc. I just want a shallow well up hill from this springs surface outlet. I can follow the surface depression up hill from each spring so I know where each vein lays. The state of Texas does not know of every well in the state they do require the pro's to get a permit but this is just for $. I am not trying to do anything jerry rigged so to speak I just want to get to this water without having to pay someone else to do this work. if this is a matter of giving away your trade expertise without compensation, I can understand that. I just want to do it right the first time.
    I thought about useing a trash pump and pit to wash down a peace of 4" thin wall with perfs in it. I don't know if the volume of water the 2 inch pump can deliver will be enough to over come the perfs. and I don't know what will happen when I hit the water level, it may take everything a 2 inch pump can put at it. what would be the easiest way for me without a drilling rig to sink the proper casing and screen big enough to get a sub-pump capable of 15 or more gal per minute. If you really don't want to get involved with this project thats ok I will try another source but I can see that there is a lot of experience here and would like to use that to my advantage. I will also tell you that I tested this water at the surface and it tested excellent.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

  15. sammyhydro11

    sammyhydro11 Previous member

    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Gary, you could have just said:

    "Here's what I suggest you should try before a pit and a trash pump."

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    And since you are a licensed and Certified well driller and advertise doing 2", 4" wells on your web site, I thought you might be able to help Catfish by giving him some ideas at least and instead, you said: I'm done with this thread. And yet here you are with no help again but obviously you forget that in my first reply I said I don't know 2 or 4" hand done wells.
  17. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    THank you gary, I liked the site. My only reservation about the driven well point/screen system is rate and depth. I will be at about the 30 mark and I don't know much about pumps except that a centerfugal pump wont work that deep. If I use a two inch point and pipe will I have enough room to instal a packer venutri thingamajig with the two pipes down hole. Also if I can what would that do to the gpm in that pipe volume size? by the way I found a wire wraped 10 slot 60 inch well point from bennet supply. Is that good? My Idea of the packer venturi is limited. I am assuming that the packer some how seals off the casing thus causing a syphon affect between the injector and supply line?
    Thanks Catfish
  18. catfish

    catfish New Member

    Messages:
    9
    I only thought of the pit and pump to wash down something larger than 4" so I could pull that and then instal a 4" casing and screen so as to be able to put a conventional submerged pump with higher volume as well as the lesser draw down caused by the smaller 2" pipe. so what kind of volume is possible with the two inch driven with 60 inches of 10 slot well screen say driven oh 10 ft below the top of the standing
    water table? :)
  19. sammyhydro11

    sammyhydro11 Previous member

    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I sent catfish a private message and told him what he needs to do. Maybe you can tell him how to install his well properly.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
  20. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    The best thing to do is consult a local driller that can tell you what to expect when you try to drill this well. There are many methods of well drilling. It all depends on what kind of material you are drilling in. It may be all sand and it may be several different kinds of layers including but not limited to clay with many rocks in it.

    This is why I don't give out drilling advice on this or my forum. I did a sticky about driving in 1-1/4" wells with galvanized pipe because this is one of the most popular ways to do a shallow well. But I also strongly advise consulting with a local driller, because he is the only one that will know what to expect.

    You can't wash holes in rock and you can't auger in soft dry sand. It just keeps caving in. The right method is the right way to drill for a given area.

    bob...
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