Need assistance of tub/shower location (and type)

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by mediaman, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Thanks again for the review. Good point re narrow door. Done !

    I love the neo angle as well - wife still not thrilled as she wanted to get away from that shape. But I do think it makes sense vs squared off. Door would be on the long side for that reason alone.. Yes vanity = 21", shower = 36" so notionally I have 96-36-21 = 39" which is great.

    Re the comment "With shower and tub on one side and the vanity on the other side, the bathroom looks like a tunnel", are you of the opinion that the neo angle alone addresses that concern, or have I got other issues I should be looking at?

    I will ask contractor about the engineering/structutal aspects of the tub. They must deal with it all the time.

    Still trying to figure out best aesthetics re tiling ( full height vs half height vs nothing). May hire a design service (via contractors) for help re colours/patterns/tile selection etc.

    Assuming contractor is good with the toilet reconfiguration, I plan to work on cabinet/vanity next and get creative re the area around the bulhkead (to allow for another access point to tub on that edge), as well as the in-wall laundy baskets which back in to a closet (thinking of long and narrow basket that would fit in-between the studs).
  2. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    Hmm.. Interesting. I thought you couldn't put the door in that spot because of the proximity to the stairs.
    I know your wife didn't like the idea of having the shower right next to the tub, but I wonder if you could put it there and if the glass around the shower would help make it look more open. You would lose access to potential storage on the side of the tub though. But, you could still put the door on the wall you originally planned and then put the little shelf thing between shower and tub in the alcove.

    Have you considered having the towel rack/towel bar attached to the bulkhead so it would be closer to the tub?

    Where will extra toilet paper rolls be stored?

    Do you think your wife would like a full length mirror on the wall next to her vanity (I think its the east wall)? It could have hinges and have hidden storage behind or something. A mirror in that corner would reflect light and give the illusion of having a larger space.
  3. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Re the door placement, proximity to stairs is the reason the door is inset the way it is, ie door can go there as shown, but I cant bring it out any more than that, to have a full reactangular room, as I hit stair issue.

    Point taken re tub/shower combo -- but thats a tough sell, especially after all the planning I put her through - reno faitgue before we start:). I do see the combo alot, but its typically with longer tubs vs corner tubs. Maintenance cccess to the corner tub may also become an issue.

    Towel rack/towel bar would likely go on that wall (and may be heated).. would use the bulkhead storage for many things (smmaler items in the shallow half and general storage in the deeper half ( eg towels toilet rolls, etc).

    Full mirror (esp hinged with storage) is a great idea that I'd like to incorporate if I could. Some options are:
    • on an earlier plan, we had it as soon as you walk in where I have the make-up table now). So that spot is taken uniless I find a new sopt ofr the make-up table,
      or..
    • lots of room on the east wall (where I have laundry pullout), but I'd like to avoid mirrors on the short wall and I think that would only compound the 'tunnel" effect.
      or..
    • a great spot, I think, would be where I have the large open storage unit between tub and the shower. It could be full length, hinged for hidden storage and its on the perfect wall to widen the room. Hmmmm... might get steamed up after shower but thsts true wherever it would be....Hmmmm. gonna play with that one!

    I guess it would be something like this ( ie recessed). Perhaps I would get two, side by each, in dark maple....
    UPDATE - I think not - cost is prohibitive : http://www.homeandstone.com/detail.cfm?Group_ID=3621&Product_ID=27682

    I guess it doesn't have to recessed come to think of it. My luck I will likely find some obstacle in the wall anyway.... like the plumbing vent to the roof for the existing toilet.

    Perhaps I cant get a local guy to make one that is more reasonable.

    Fairhaven-Full-Length-Cabinet.jpg


    http://www.kitchenlav.com/Original ...en_cabinets/Fairhaven-Full-Length-Cabinet.jpg


    ...or the one you posted earlier:

    60df24a011dd8b471cd4793e9f94d44d.jpg
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  4. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    You can probably find a decent mirror at some discount store and have it mounted as a door and get your contractor to build the cabinet for it. I know Walmart here has some rather narrow mirrors that are tall. I'm not sure what dimensions you are looking for. I also don't know if you live near any scrap yards or places where people get rid of stuff when they are renovating and the yards gather up stuff and sell it. I would do that if I had any idea where one was in my area. Have you also looked at surplus stores/warehouses? Sometimes you can find better deals I think.

    I don't get how they can charge *that* much for the mirror thing. Sheesh.

    If you have any long mirrors right now, perhaps you can prop them against walls in the current bathroom and see how it looks (as well as maybe putting up boxes or setting something up to mark off the dimensions but have an idea of how closed in it will feel-- assuming you can find something to use as a mock up).

    I hadn't noticed that the door was recessed a bit.

    My brother just came in and started yabbering at me so I lost my train of thought.
  5. rapida

    rapida New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    mn
    I think the neo angle addresses that concern to some degree. And I agree with suceress that a full length mirror will be a nice addition to the master bath. The most convenient location for it will be near the dressing area. But there is no wall space for it except for behind the bathroom door, which is not convenient anyways (I don't think it will compound the 'tunnel" effect, though). The only concern with putting the mirror between the shower and tub is that you have to walk from the dressing area past the shower/vanity to get to use the mirror. It's still better than without it. Where to put the mirror then depends on whether you prefer to shut the door or to walk further into the bathroom to use it.
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  6. rapida

    rapida New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    mn
    OK, I played with the drawing a little. I made the shower a little bigger and moved it next to the tub. The storage is gone but you get a closet outside of the bathroom. That's even more storage. If you are looking to have maximum storage inside the bathroom, it's not the best answer though.

    Pros and cons:
    Pros:
    1. Bigger shower. In plan H6 you had a 60"x50" shower. In plan I the shower is only 36"x60", and the neo angle further reduces the size. With the bench cutting 17" and the neo cutting 12" on the length (I assumed 20" on the return panel, 22" on the 45 degree panel, and drew a line at 32" width since beyond that it's dead space for showering), your shower is only 36"x30" effectively. That's kind of small.

    2. You get the chance to put the bench on the neo side, as an extension of the tub deck. Not that it's athetically or functionally better per se, but with the bench on the neo side you can have the shower door hinged to the wall on the other side. Now that's a big plus, IMHO. If the shower door is hinged to another glass panel, it's not stable, unless that panel goes all the way to the ceiling so that it's secured on three sides. Or you'll have a header, as shown. Having the glass to the ceiling increases the cost of glass significantly, and there will be additional cost for ventilation and shower ceiling treatment (tile the ceiling). Having the header, IMHO, defeats the purpose of frameless shower. And usually you still have to increase the height of the glass at additional cost. So, if you can have the shower door hinged to a wall, don't put it between two glass panels.

    3. You get the wall space between the shower and bathroom door to put your mirror. It's close to the dressing area which makes most sense, and by putting the mirror on the long wall, the tunnel feeling will be aleviated.

    4. More storage, although it's outside of the bathroom.

    Cons:
    1. You lose the storage between the shower and tub. There will be less open space in that area.

    2. The bench on the neo side is a little awkward. Maybe you can have a shorter bench like shown in the other drawing, which also opens up the space between the shower and tub. But then, the bench is kind of small, and maybe not too comfortable if you sit on the bench to take a shower.

    3. Extending the wall next to the bathroom door could make the "tunnel" feel narrower, although having a mirror will help.

    In plan I, if you are ok with the shower size, building a wall next to the bench can address two things: the mirror and the shower door hinge. But that wall, same as if you opt for a closet, could make the room "feel" narrower.

    play.jpg play1.jpg frameless_neo_angle_with_header.jpg


    mediaman, maybe maybe plan H6 is not that bad at all. In plan I the cost increase of the glass shower door may be close to what you need to pay the plumber in H6 (custom vs. stock and significant bigger glass). Plan H6 also utilizes the floor space the best, creates more balanced foot traffic (shower on one side and the rest on the other side), and does not have the tunnel feeling. The only thing I'd suggest other than relocating the toiler is to have a bigger entrance. My powder room has a 24" door, and I think it's small even for a small powder room. To accommodate a 30" door, the shower size needs to be reduced to 56"x50". I know it's a big sacrifice, but the shower is still roomy. With a 17" bench, the opening is 39". You don't even need another glass panel, just one pivot glass door hinged on the wall is good enough. BTW, the wall next to the bench doesn't need to be full height. You can have it the same height as the glass door if you like (I still like full height though). :) And the full height mirror? Behind the bathroom door.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  7. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    I like your thoughts, Rapida. :)

    Love the picture of the neo shower. Until I came here, I'd never even heard of the term "neo" in relation to the bathroom fixtures. What exactly does it mean, btw? Is it just for odd angles?

    I just had a thought, but involves more information. What are the exterior dimensions of the bulkhead? Is there enough space to put the back of the toilet to the west wall of the bulkhead? Would that allow the vanity to be bumped back over a bit farther west?

    If that is sufficient space, would it still be possible to put the shower in the alcove? Or did I forget something about why the shower was moved out of there?
  8. rapida

    rapida New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    mn
    A neo-angle shower door is just when you have angles other than 90 degrees. 45/135 degree is most common, but other angles are possible.

    As far as I can see that involves moving the toilet out of the floor joist space it's currently in. Since the drain cannot go through the joist, it needs to go under. Then you have to reduce the ceiling height for the space underneath. More cost too.

    It's moved out of the alcove because moving the drain for the shower to the alcove will cost about $2k (per the contractor mediaman had). In plan I the shower drain stays where it is, only the shower becomes bigger.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  9. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    Ahh. Ok. Thanks. My brain wasn't working again. I hope he can find a solution that will work without making the bathroom look like a tunnel. I know that adding mirrors to the long walls can sometimes give the illusion of more space. My father and I built a custom computer desk with deep shelves and I suggested putting mirrors at the back instead of just wood paneling so that it would give the illusion of more space. It also made the light reflect more so it was easier to see toward the back to find things. It really did work to take away the feeling of being cramped. If it wasn't a cluttered mess and I could get the right angle to get a picture I would share it.
  10. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Well, talked to the contractor about moving the toilet. All doable, but not really any less costly as he still has to drop the ceiling below to allow the new position (backing to outside wall), to drain to the stack (on inside wall). as well we don't what obstacles, if any, exist in the joist.

    Hmmm tough choices here. Our preference for the tub is the corner style, so that only works with the toilet moved.

    On the negative side, other than additional money, having the shower on that same wall, as pointed out, is leaving us with a narrow shower that we had hoped for. Redoing the math, 96" width less 21" for the vanity less 36" aisle, less 6" for the curb leaves a shower floor width of 33". Thats less than other options and less we have now on our non-neo wall. The tunnel effect also still concerns me. Finally we are getting a bit frustrated that we find oursleves compromising with so much money on the line.

    My wife asked me a simple question - why cant we move the toilet to accomodate the corner tub we want per the latest plan AND have the larger alcove shower from the previous plan, given they are going to have to break the ceiling anyway ( where we have high ceilings in the laundry room and powder room beneath). Other than money, its certainly an option. Not perfect as door entrance would be narrow again, and shower would be tiled on three walls, but it might be the best compromise.

    Gonna draw it up and see what we think.
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  11. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Here is the 2D version ; will work on the 3D version tonight.

    i6.jpg
    Last edited: May 9, 2013
  12. rapida

    rapida New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    mn
    Exactly! I think this is the best plan so far. I liked that you increased the bathroom door size. And the mirror location too.
  13. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    I do agree that this plan seems to be the best use of space thus far.
  14. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Thanks, starting to warm up to it myself. Hopefully on the price, its a case of $2k to move shower only + $2k to move toilet only = $3k to move both :)

    Here are some preliminary 3D shots.

    Still need to think through what to do with :
    - the walls ( eg full, half or no tiles)
    - area over the toilet
    - area where vanity meets glass

    Also playing with the makeup table + bench/storage area, I have 6 feet to work with. In the 2D sketch I had 4 feet for the makeup table...in the 3D sketches used 3 feet.


    From the south looking north:
    i6-s-n.jpg


    From the north looking south:
    i6-n-s.jpg
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  15. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    And here is a 3D version - not great but its a start.
  16. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    Ooh! Very nice! I can see what you mean now about how it would look like a tunnel if you'd had the shower on the south wall. This one looks like it has a nice amount of space. What are your plans to keep the entry door from slamming into the wall? spring thing at the bottom or a door buffer thingy (I don't know what its called) at knob level?

    I'm still curious as to towel bars for the shower as well. But I know you still have a lot of more major details to work out.

    I like that it seems you have good access to the plumbing underneath on the corner tub. There looks like enough room for a small access panel where you could pull it open and use shut-off valves under the faucets. Will there be a grab bar on the bulkhead?

    I know you don't want the toilet to be cramped, but it looks like you could probably fit some sort of tall corner storage cubby against the bulkhead on the north wall. Or have a low profile little dresser there under the towel rack to store toilet paper and stuff that you would want to have in reach. I vote for a magazine rack somewhere near by with crossword puzzles or word fill-it ins or whatever you guys use when you have to be in there awhile. :p

    You can fit a box of tissues on the back of the toilet. Oh wait. i forgot trash can for the bathroom.. That might fit under the towel rack. Tissues and non-flushable stuff can go in it.

    In my mother's bathroom, my father built shelves on the wall above the toilet and there is a support board coming down that has the toilet paper holder as well as a little mini-shelf to hold pencils, lead refills, nail clippers, reading glasses, etc. The framed thing above the little shelf has artwork made of seashells inside. Please ignore the clutter on the floor. LOL.
    [​IMG]
  17. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nothing at bottom, or ar knob level, but rather a a hinge pin door stop at the upper hinge. I have these on some of the doors in the house.; I should really get more!

    door-stop.jpg
  18. suceress

    suceress Member

    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    LA
    Ohh! That's what those things are! I've seen them lying around and in boxes and such, but never really knew what they were. I wonder if that would work on my bathroom door. Mine keeps hitting the coat rack thingy on the wall.

    I almost wonder if you could move the towel rack over the toilet so it would be easier to reach from the sink (although you would still have to lean over the toilet) and then use the space on the wall next to the toilet for something else. Do you plan to have something over the toilet? Maybe something high enough up that nobody would bang their head on it if they were leaning back. You could probably attach a nearly full-length mirror to the bathroom door so your wife could have a tall mirror somewhat close to her makeup table. With a hollow core door you could probably even have it open up to have storage for very small items (unless that would be prohibitively expensive).

    I wish I was near your area because I would give you some old mirror mirrors (just the mirrored glass- no frames) that we salvaged-- stuff was just going to be thrown away.
  19. rapida

    rapida New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    mn
    mediaman, nice 3d work again!

    I was thinking you'll have a full wall next to your shower bench (next to the vanity and tower). If you have a panel on the bench as shown, the gap between the shower and the vanity will be hard to clean. My former bathroom had a similar configuration and I hated it - stuff always fell into the gap and the mop head could not go in (I could only use the Swiffer duster but not their floor wipe). If you have a full wall, you just bring your vanity right to it. Then you don't have a vanity to glass problem. As a bonus you can have a hand towel ring on that wall. :)

    As for the toilet area, I don't think you need to/should put a lot of stuff there. A towel warmer to the left next to the bulkhead is very nice. You may also think about hanging a picture over the toilet. I don't think you need more fixed storage there - it will distract the look of your vanity towers. You'll also need clearance to get access to everything in that space, and more stuff = less clearance = inconvenience = less storage effectively. Some small movable storage is fine, such as a magazine basket/holder, etc.

    I don't see the necessity to tile all the walls. If you do it's just for aesthetics not for functionality. Two rows of tile over your tub is enough to protect the walls from water splash. If you want to make your bathroom fancy, the sky is the limit. I went to quite some tile showrooms in search for my tiles, and it was such an enjoyment to see so many beautiful art pieces, as if I was in a gallery. But in the end I chose a $1.98/sf tile for the walls (from the big orange box) and a $5.98/sf tile (from a tile outlet) for the floor. I was very happy with them, since they were the best match for the color of my vanity and granite top. Then I picked the paint color to tie all of them together. I tiled the full wall over the tub, only because there is a big window and it was only 8 sqft of wall space left after the two courses over the tub.

    I took a picture of a shower and vanity in the Tile Shop. The configuration is quite similar to yours. It has a very nice arch. :) IMG_1247[1].jpg
  20. mediaman

    mediaman New Member

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Thanks guys for being such great sounding boards. Right now we have a small narrow white cabinet over our toilet, which works well, but it not near anything else.

    I think what would NOT work is this:
    • stand alone wall unit over the wall unit (I agree with the point above about not wanting to distract from the vanity)
    • towel warmer (as it would not work for for larger towels, which it what we would use if for the most)
    What might work is:
    • a large picture (or a collage of smaller ones)
    • floating glass shelving, with or without small towel bar)
    • floating maple shelving to match vanity
    • an extended vanity (shown in white below, but would be dark maple. Mind you I like the white by te toilet)

    See some ideas below:

    float1.jpg
    -
    float1r.jpg
    -
    float3.jpg
    -
    toiletwall.jpg
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
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