Multiple loud bangine noises when heat is called for

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Dana

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The fact that it has any banging at all with a high-limit set to 160F makes me suspect the boiler is really ISN'T getting sufficient flow. If you bled the radiation at the highest elevation in the house and got no air, a low flow condition wouldn't be due to a big air bubble

If you've fixed any flow issues and have gotten rid of the symptom and the burn times are still that short, it's worth doing something about it. Two minute burns are an efficiency problem. For sanity checking the burn times against what would be expected based on radiation size & boiler size, what is the BTU/hr rating on the boiler (looks like it might be a Weil McLain WGO series?), and how much baseboard do you have (on each zone separately)??

Raising the aquastat temps 180/160 F might add a minute to the min burn times (by getting a higher BTU/minute rate out of the fin tube), but even 3 minutes is going to cut into efficiency by a double-digit percentage below the rated AFUE. A retrofit heat purging economizer such the Intellicon 3250 HW+ could probably more than double that by automatically allowing a higher differentials during continuous calls for heat, and probably save you ~15% on oil use. (This is a DIY-able installation of a $150-200 component, for those handy with electrician skills.)
 

forumpersona

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The fact that it has any banging at all with a high-limit set to 160F makes me suspect the boiler is really ISN'T getting sufficient flow. If you bled the radiation at the highest elevation in the house and got no air, a low flow condition wouldn't be due to a big air bubble

If you've fixed any flow issues and have gotten rid of the symptom and the burn times are still that short, it's worth doing something about it. Two minute burns are an efficiency problem. For sanity checking the burn times against what would be expected based on radiation size & boiler size, what is the BTU/hr rating on the boiler (looks like it might be a Weil McLain WGO series?), and how much baseboard do you have (on each zone separately)??

Raising the aquastat temps 180/160 F might add a minute to the min burn times (by getting a higher BTU/minute rate out of the fin tube), but even 3 minutes is going to cut into efficiency by a double-digit percentage below the rated AFUE. A retrofit heat purging economizer such the Intellicon 3250 HW+ could probably more than double that by automatically allowing a higher differentials during continuous calls for heat, and probably save you ~15% on oil use. (This is a DIY-able installation of a $150-200 component, for those handy with electrician skills.)
Boiler has 2 ratings on it. D.O.E. at 212.000 and B=R of 184.000

p.s. I did not bleed anything as I don't think there are any bleed valves anywhere...
 

Dana

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A boiler with 212,000 BTU/hr of DOE output for a 2700 (78 BTU/hr per square foot of house) for a house in CT is insanely oversized, even if the house has ZERO insulation. If the house is has insulated 2x4 framed walls plus attic insulation and at least clear-glass storm windows over wood single-panes, even with no foundation insulation you might be looking at a heat load in the neighborhood of 50-55,000 BTU/hr @ 0F. If it also has foundation insulation and U0.34 replacement windows it would probably be under 40,000 BTU/hr.

Tell me how much baseboard you have on each zone, and we'll guesstimate the minimum burn times base on a WAG for the total thermal mass in the boiler + zone, and the heat being emitted in the zone.

My strong suspicion is that even if all zones were calling for heat at once there isn't anywhere near enough baseboard to balance with 212,000BTU/hr of boiler. At an average water temp of 180F that would take 350' of baseboard. At an AWT of 150F (160F out, 140F return) that would take over 500' of baseboad. Most 2700' houses won't have enough enough free exterior wall space for more than 250-300' of baseboard, and are more likely to have something like 150' installed for the whole house, broken into 2 zones with 50-60' on the smaller zone. Dumping 212,000 BTU/hr into even a 100' zone is over 2000 BTU/hr per running foot, which would take super-heated steam type temperatures to balance.

But measure up all the baseboards, with the zone sub-totals and we'll see where it lives.
 

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Bleeder valves look like this:

p_SCP_237_08.jpg


or this:

baseboard-s.jpg


AirBleedValve106DJFs.jpg


There are varations on the theme, but they're usually really small, screwdriver operated things.

It's rare to see a multi-story hydronic system that doesn't have a bleeder at least somewhere on the upper floor unless it has a system vent somewhere on the second floor.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Yea, so the aquastat bulb is either not feeling the true boiler temperature, the gauge is off or not feeling the true temperature, the boiler is filled with muck or the aquastat itself is NFG.

Dana, your 1st picture ain't a bleeder, it's just a shutoff/ balancing valve.
Very few 2nd story loops have bleeders of any kind on them. Air can be purged from the boiler return.
 

Dana

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I could believe a screwed up aquastat OR a bad temperature gauge, but if they are in approximate agreement it's hard to say how they could both be off.

There are variations on the bleeder valve morph- I didn't recognize that pic as a balancing valve.

Tom has probably seen an order of magnitude more systems than me, but I've always found at least one place to bleed the system on the top floors of older systems like this. The cast iron blob the system vent is screwed into in your pictures doesn't look much like more recent vintage air scoops, but may provide that function.

Air purging a system with a big bubble in the upper floor loop without a bleeder or vent at or near the top of the system can be a real PITA, but people do it. If it's been running for weeks/months and heating the zone with 160F output when it's 0F outside, it's not too likely there's a lot of air in the loop.

Having boiler output 10x oversized for the zone radiation would itself cause very short burn times (at any water temperature), even with a 15-20F differential. If you have only 50-100' of fin tube on that zone (which is likely), there's no way it WON'T short cycle. But the short cycling isn't related to popping and banging symptoms (unless it's a misfire on the burner on startup, which would be pretty loud in the boiler room.)
 

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I could believe a screwed up aquastat OR a bad temperature gauge, but if they are in approximate agreement it's hard to say how they could both be off.

There are variations on the bleeder valve morph- I didn't recognize that pic as a balancing valve.

Tom has probably seen an order of magnitude more systems than me, but I've always found at least one place to bleed the system on the top floors of older systems like this. The cast iron blob the system vent is screwed into in your pictures doesn't look much like more recent vintage air scoops, but may provide that function.

Air purging a system with a big bubble in the upper floor loop without a bleeder or vent at or near the top of the system can be a real PITA, but people do it. If it's been running for weeks/months and heating the zone with 160F output when it's 0F outside, it's not too likely there's a lot of air in the loop.

Having boiler output 10x oversized for the zone radiation would itself cause very short burn times (at any water temperature), even with a 15-20F differential. If you have only 50-100' of fin tube on that zone (which is likely), there's no way it WON'T short cycle. But the short cycling isn't related to popping and banging symptoms (unless it's a misfire on the burner on startup, which would be pretty loud in the boiler room.)
Measured the top floor - 80 feet.
 

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A boiler with 212,000 BTU/hr of DOE output for a 2700 (78 BTU/hr per square foot of house) for a house in CT is insanely oversized, even if the house has ZERO insulation. If the house is has insulated 2x4 framed walls plus attic insulation and at least clear-glass storm windows over wood single-panes, even with no foundation insulation you might be looking at a heat load in the neighborhood of 50-55,000 BTU/hr @ 0F. If it also has foundation insulation and U0.34 replacement windows it would probably be under 40,000 BTU/hr.

Tell me how much baseboard you have on each zone, and we'll guesstimate the minimum burn times base on a WAG for the total thermal mass in the boiler + zone, and the heat being emitted in the zone.

My strong suspicion is that even if all zones were calling for heat at once there isn't anywhere near enough baseboard to balance with 212,000BTU/hr of boiler. At an average water temp of 180F that would take 350' of baseboard. At an AWT of 150F (160F out, 140F return) that would take over 500' of baseboad. Most 2700' houses won't have enough enough free exterior wall space for more than 250-300' of baseboard, and are more likely to have something like 150' installed for the whole house, broken into 2 zones with 50-60' on the smaller zone. Dumping 212,000 BTU/hr into even a 100' zone is over 2000 BTU/hr per running foot, which would take super-heated steam type temperatures to balance.

But measure up all the baseboards, with the zone sub-totals and we'll see where it lives.
House has 2x4 framing with insulation and TONS of attic insulation. When we redid the bath, i saw that the old insulation in the wall looks shrunk. It's not as nice looking as brand new insulation. I'd say it's about 1/2 as thick as brand new insulation for 2x4. Windows are all about 10 years old, double pane. Foundation/Basement is 3/4 underground and just has drywall on top of the concrete block wall. No insulation that I can see. Also, I do not see anything like the above pictures on the top floor baseboard...

Thx
 
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Dana

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There is so little heat being emitted (relative to the output of the boiler) and thermal mass to those zones is so low that the boiler is basically just heating itself up over several 10s of seconds, hitting the high limit and turning off. We'd have to look up the specs on the boiler model to come up with a reasonable estimate of the water-volume + cast iron thermal mass, but you're looking at maybe 25-30lbs of water in the bigger zones, even less in the basement zone, which isn't much. That's probably a WGO6, which has 18 .4 gallons/ ~150lbs of water volume and probably another 50lbs of water-equivalent cast iron for a total of 230lbs (zone volume + boiler.) An output of 212,000 BTU/hr is 59 BTU per second. To raise 230lbs of water-mass equivalent 20F takes 20F x 230lbs= 4600 BTU, so at 59 BTU/second you're looking at a minimum burn time of about 78 seconds on a zone call, which is an EXTREME short cycle. Since it's emitting 400-500 BTU/hr per foot, the "excess" on the 80' zone is really "0nly" something like 172,000 BTU/hr , or about 50BTU/second, not 59, but that's not much of a difference. For that thing to hit it's AFUE ratings you'd need to have burn times north of 50 minutes (300 seconds). With that type of short cycling it's as-used AFUE is probably something like 70% best-case, for a boiler that's capable of 85% if sized properly to the load & radiation.

Even if all 196' of baseboard were being operated as a single zone, with 212,000BTU/hr of boiler output that's ~1080 BTU/hr per running foot, which is 25-30% more than the baseboard could emit with 220F water. Whoever installed that boiler on a system with such little radiation relative to the boiler is incompetent. There are no really good (read "inexpensive") solutions here. The options are a smaller "right sized" boiler, a monster-sized buffer tank to add thermal mass to the system, or quintupling the size of the radiation. The smallest oil boilers out there have a DOE output in the neighborhood of ~60,000 BTU/hr give or take, and that's probably the cheapest solution to the short-cycling (not that it's cheap.) With 60,000 BTU/hr of output and ~200' of baseboard, when all zones are calling for heat at once that's about 300BTU/hr per foot, which take an average water temp of about 140F, which means the return water entering the boiler is potentially in a condensing temperature zone for an oil boiler, but that can be corrected in the near-boiler plumbing with a bypass branch, 0r plumbing it primary/secondary. 60K into 80' of fin tube is 750BTU/hr-ft, which balances at an AWT of ~200F. But even if you run it at 180F out/160F back with an AWT of 170F, the 80' of fin tube is still emitting over 40,000 BTU/hr so the amount of excess heat is only 20,000 BTU/hr, nearly an order of magnitude lower than your current 172,000 BTU/hr. so tweaking the system to get 5 minute+ burns would not be difficult.

That's not much help for your current symptom, but something to think about before the price of oil heads north of $4/gallon again.

Batts don't shrink (unless mice have been using it as nesting material, which should be obvious.) Some 50-60 years ago it was pretty common to install half-depth R6-R7 "econobatts" into 2x4 framing. If you have a lot of wall area with econobatts, it's possible & desirable to blow cellulose into those cavities with a "dense-packing" tube inserted into a single ~2.5" hole (on either the interior or exterior), which will reduce the air leakage of the house significantly and lower the heat load of the house. This may be subsidized by the state or local utilities, which takes the sting out of it even further.

In an uninsulated CMU wall basement with half-inch sheet rock the above-grade portion of the wall is only worth about R1.5-R2, which has about 2-3x the heat loss per square foot of econobatt-insulated 2x4 (which means the total of eat loss through the ~3' of exposed foundation is about the same as through the full 9-10' height of one story of above-grade wall) and about 5x the heat loss per square foot of R13 fiberglass or dense-packed 2x4 construction. Since there is sheet rock over it it's a real project, but air-sealing & insulating the foundation sill & band joist, and insulating the CMU wall down to at least 3' below grade is still worth it, even at $2/gallon oil with a right-sized boiler, and even more so with a ridiculously oversized boiler that's short-cycling, and spending most of it's time in idle mode. With an insulated basement the standby loss alone of the oversized boiler would likely keep it as warm or warmer down there as the above-grade floors, and the basement zone thermostat would literally never call for heat. You can't insulate a basement in the same manner as the above grade floors due to moisture considerations. When you get to that point, refer back the remodeling forum on this site, where the details have been spelled out in multiple threads.
 

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Dana, very informative post. I appreciate it. Weirdly enough last night we had sub zero temps. The ground floor thermostat was set to 69 and so was the top floor. The top floor reached 69 quickly but the ground floor took hours to get there (from overnight setting of 65). So, the ground floor thermostat was calling for heat continuously. The 'Heat on' indicator was showing and the zone LED on the boiler was on. The baseboard elements on the ground floor were heated but the heat was not sufficient to heat up the house. I had to go to the Aquastat and raise the HI to 175. Only then did the temps rise and hit 69. So, we may have missed something in our facts that makes the ground floor lose heat faster than we thought.
 

Dana

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With the econobatt walls and a cold floor from the uninsulated basement below, it's not surprising that the first floor's heat loss is lower than the upper floor, which has a decently insulated attic above it, and an (almost fully) heated space below it.

If you fully fill & pack out the first floor's wall cavities and insulate the basement walls to at least a couple feet below grade the first floor zone would probably keep up at -5F with 140F water. The place would then also be more comfortable at any room-air temperature, since the surface temps of the walls & floor would be higher, raising the "mean radiation temperature" of the walls, ceiling & floor.

CT has a "Home Energy Solutions" program offered through the electric utilities where they do a fairly extensive audit of the home's air-leakage & insulation, and make upgrade recommendations that then qualify for rebates. If you point out the econobatt situation to the auditor you'd almost certainly have some rebates on doing the wall insulation. They'd likely up some money for air-sealing the basement, but I'm not sure if there's anything for basement insulation under that program.

There are ways of doing basement insulation on the cheap using reclaimed roofing foam from commercial demolition & re-roofing, and there are several vendors of that stuff in southern New England. (I put 3" of reclaimed fiber-faced roofing polyiso on my walls in central MA, at a material cost cheaper than R13 fiberglass.)
 
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