Make a Tannin system from a Water Softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Majorshooter, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Good day

    I was browsing the Internet for info on Tannin removal and have a question. I have an oportunity to purchase a water sofener for a good price ($400). I have left a voicemail for the seller asking the make and model. I want to make a Tannin system out of it by replacing the resin. Is this something that has been done by anyone on this site? Is it aceptable practice? My current water treatment is limited to the following: 1 x 5 micron filter, 1 x 1 micron filter and an Rainfresh 8 GPM UltraViolet bacteria removal unit. I am not currently drinking the water and have not had it tested. The water has a light yellowish/brown color right now. When filling the tub it it more noticable. I was looking into replacement resin types for tannins and would like to use something that requires lower amounts of salt for the regeneration phase. I was looking at Purolite A-850. If someone could provide some helpful feedback at this stage I would appreciate it.
    PS: I am drawing the water from a lake.

    Cheers
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
    Ontario California
    You can change the resin from softening (Cation) to Tannin removal (Anion), many companies even mix the two with some success. There are some concerns with tannin removal. General guidelines state that the water should be softened prior to running the water through the Anion resin bed to prevent fouling of the media. Mixed bed systems do not work properly since the Anion migrates on top of the softening bed, so the hard water goes through the Aion first causing potential service issues and media longevity can be a problem. Amine smell(fish odor) is not uncommon with some anion tannin resins, especially at higher pH (>8) Other methods of tannin removal include chlorine injection, contact tank, dechlorinization. This will also add the benefit of acting as a secondary water sanitization method. Try this simple test, take a jar of your yellowish water, add a couple drops of chlorine to it, and see if this breaks down the tannins. Depending on the cause of the tannins, (what type of vegitation etc is causing it), you should see some settling.

    Lastly, do you have a recent test? Considering it is a lake, tannins are probably what is causing the discoloration. Does it have a smell?
  3. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Thanks for the reply dittohead. I think I read that some mixed resin units used a mesh to separate the resins so they didn't migrate, but I am not sure. More reading reqr'd. I have no odor with the water. It is almost clear in a glass but I haven't tried looking at it in a styrafoam cup yet. I read that is the best way to get a good read on the color. I have not had the water tested yet but I should do that ASAP so I know what I am up against. My neighbour (seasonal) is a geologist and has done extensive testing of the water and soil both in the lake and in the ground. However he lives in Ontario. His study was to determine how the local minerals were able to eliminate the arsenic that was evident in the soil but did not extend to the lake water. Also, I notice there are many different types of Anion resins, strong, weak, acrylic, gel, etc... Big difference in price as well. I will find a local testing company and get them a sample so I have a basis to start. If you have any insight as to what types of resins work better with acidic or alkaline water that would also help. Oh, and the water seems to be soft, it doesn't feel hard or have any iron odor. I will get some chlorine and try your test.

    Thanks
  4. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,842
    Location:
    Ontario California
    From Axeon "Salt is used to regenerate the anion resin. Generally, the resin will be brined at 10 lbs per cubic foot. Most importantly, this regeneration should be performed every two to three days. Frequent regeneration will reduce the likelihood of organic fouling. Longer regeneration intervals will promote organic fouling, whether the anion is an acrylic or styrene based resin."

    The 5600 does not have adjustable cycles except for the brine refill. For regeneration purposes, this is not critical in many applications. Most electronic valves have adjustable cycle times. The salt setting is adjustable on the 5600. Most commonly from 6-30 pounds per regeneration.

    I think you are mistaking the regeneration cycles with the brine amount. I am not much of a fan of using tannin resin for tannin removal, it is not the most environmentally but we do a lot of it. I prefer chlorine, contact tank, GAC. Either way can be hit and miss. Tannin selective resin tends to alter the pH and can have odor problems.
  6. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Thanks
    I will research chlorination etc... How do those methods compare economically. I might be able to get the system up and running for $400.00 with the reverted water softener. Is the chlorine injected on the fly (sounds tricky) or does it require a large holding tank, manual chlorine addition etc... Sounds expensive if that is the case...???
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,842
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Chlorine is very cheap, a simple chlorine injection system is cheaper for consumables, the pellets are much more expensive, but either way is very cheap. A few dollars a month vs. 10 dollars a month. The tannin resin will cost you a little bit in salt, so both have some consumable cost. Tannin can be tricky since tannins are never quite the same. Organic composition of tannins can vary considerably even in the same city. Check out the HN55, simple and cheap, noisy. [video=youtube;uOF5orehtUY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOF5orehtUY[/video]
  8. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Thanks for the info. I was looking at some chlorination systems and they were looking quite complicated. I am going to the cottage tomorrow night for 3 days. I will try the chlorine drops test in the glass of water to see if it works clearing up the color. I will also get some water sample bottles somewhere. I will have to find someone in the area hopefully tonight after work. Storm brewing out there right now could be messy on the way home.
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

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    For an experimenter, I wonder if you could use a non-leaking but failed water heater as a post-chlorine contact tank. That might be short-lived-- particularly if the anode is not good. If it did great, then you could consider investing in the real thing.
  10. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Hi there Reach4.
    I have my old cast iron buffer tank in a shed. I could clean it out as a test tank. How would I inject the chlorine into the supply line at the right amount without purchasing an injection system?
    The diagram at the bottom of this page shows a simplified system. http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/contact-tank.html#item=T2000760
    It has a chemical tank and pump which no doubt meters the chlorine.
  11. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

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    Yeah, the "pump" in the diagram is short for "injection system". The HN55 described in Dittohead's post #7 is one of the best bang-for-the-buck systems around.
  12. Majorshooter

    Majorshooter New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NS
    Ok, I checked out the HN55 and it looks like a fairly easy install. Of course I guess if I purchase the pump I am committing to the chlorine option. But I do like the simplicity of this solution as Dittohead mentioned. Bleach is cheap. I will let you know how the bleach test goes this weekend. I found a fellow that tests water in Porters Lake that is not too far off the way to the cottage. He will test for free and then I will know my tannin and mineral levels. Does the chemical container the pump picks the chlorine bleach up from need to be fairly air tight to prevent evaporation besides the obvious need for atmospheric pressure on top of the liquid to prevent vapor lock? Can anyone give me a general idea of the consumption rate for an average two person household for a month? Just a general idea of how often I would need to check the chem tank... How noisey is it? Noisier than an old Duro piston pump? I am building an insulated room for the water equipment anyway so it probably won't make a diference. Just for info, I no longer use the Duro continuously, I just have it in parrellel for priming. The centrifugal pumps can be a bugger to prime, they don't suck like the old Duro and Morris Fairbanks pumps.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You do not want chlorine in contact with cast iron or mild steel.
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

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    2,302
    Location:
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    It does not have to be air tight. A water plus bleach solution is more stable than I expected before reading about that. Weaker solutions are more stable than stronger solutions. So a month or two should be fine at normal temperatures. A solution tank generally has a lid but is not gasketed. I would be concerned about evaporation without a lid. The draw tube usually has a strainer.

    See http://web.mit.edu/watsan/Docs/Student Theses/Nepal/Morganti2002.pdf pages 27 and 28.
  15. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

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    Check this post: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...-filter-for-RO&p=383543&viewfull=1#post383543
    and the posts starting at: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...g-best-choice!&p=383185&viewfull=1#post383185
    and this one: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...-water-options&p=354472&viewfull=1#post354472

    I refill the 20-gallon chlorine tank when it gets down to 1/4 full or so (every 3 or 4 months), adding a full jug of regular Clorox. I buy it at Costco; used to come in 1.42 gallon jugs (6.0% sodium hypochlorite), now "concentrated" in 121 ounce (0.94 gallon) jugs, 8.25% NaClO. (Those numbers don't work out, for some reason.) Be careful not to buy the fancy scented variety.

    I use a Pulsafeeder pump (http://www.pulsatron.com/products/pumps/pulsatron/pulsatron-series-c), only because that's what the original installer used. It's kind of noisy, but everything's in the pumphouse about 50' from the house. It works well, but if it were to fail, I'd probably replace it with the HN55.

    Update: Clorox is no longer listed on the WQA site as WQA Gold-certified as a drinking water treatment chemical under NSF/ANSI 60. I've written Clorox to see wazzup with that.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
  16. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    You also don't want the vapor form in contact with them. Incidental exposure from small spills in my wellhouse severely corroded several tools and other steel items lying around over the years. The old "use in a well-ventilated area" advice is well-taken.
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I don't know about currently but there used to be a Caution; Not to be used for water treatment. on their label.

    To my knowledge, the only FDA approved chlorine for potable water water treatment use is chlorine pellets. They are sold by water treatment dealers, pump and plumbing supply houses and some hardware stores in areas where there are people with wells.
  18. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

    Messages:
    2,714
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Don't know about the FDA, but the WQA lists a ton of sodium hypochlorite vendors in various concentration. Clorox was listed there a few years ago, but not now. Clorox's current (12/4/13) Service Bulletin says:

    "This product—a germicide—is an 8.25% sodium hypochlorite solution containing approximately 7.85% available chlorine by weight. In addition to being a highly effective liquid chlorine bleach for laundering and household disinfecting, it is widely used in sanitation of poultry and livestock houses and equipment, dairies, creameries, restaurants and taverns, as well as for purification of drinking water and disinfection of water for swimming and wading pools."
  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

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    http://www.clorox.com/products/clorox-concentrated-regular-bleach/#Cleaning, Sanitizing & Disinfecting Product-Clorox® Regular-Bleach ID-19-Emergency Water Disinfection says
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
    Ontario California
    Of course Clorox can be used for disinfection, it is commonly spec'd in to USP 27 and WFI systems as a pre-treatment method. But... do not use the "Pine Fresh scent" chlorox for water treatment.

    From NSF re: Clorox

    [CL] The residual levels of chlorine (hypochlorite ion and hypochlorous acid), chlorine
    dioxide, chlorate ion, chloramine and disinfection by-products shall be monitored in the
    finished drinking water to ensure compliance to all applicable regulations.

    [HR][/HR]
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