Kerdi - Kerdi DS vs NobleSeal TS or CIS - which is better?

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Kerdi - Kerdi DS vs NobleSeal TS or CIS - which is better?


    It appears that many people enjoy searching for information this way. The title here "Kerdi vs NobleSeal CIS - which is better?" appears to be something people are trying to find out. I know what product I think is better.

    I have built dozens of showers with each material. Basic showers and steam showers.

    Which product do I think is better? That's easy. Noble Company's NobleSeal TS.

    I would think there is only one or two other men here who have installed both and it would be great to here from them. So Counter? Roberto? Which do you like better?

    My top three reasons why Noble Company's NobleSeal CIS and TS are better than Kerdi are;
    • NobleSeal TS and CIS has a lower perm rating. That is a huge plus in steam shower builds.
    • NobleSeal TS and CIS allow the use of modified thin-sets and this is the clear stand out since most specifications and tile makers specify a modify setting material to be used.
    • NobleSeal TS roll is 5' CIS is 6' - so you get less seams in a shower than had you used Kerdi or Kerdi DS
    My top three selling features of Kerdi are;
    • Kerdi Fix smells less than NobleSealant 150
    • Kerdi is much much thinner than NobleSeal CIS (handy around windows)
    • Slightly easier access to materials
    I used Kerdi for well over a decade. Nearly 15 years. I have been using NobleSeal CIS for the past three years. Side by side there is no comparassion - The Noble Product certainly is the better of the two products.

    Kerdi is sold hard online - one of the biggest promoters hangs out right here. Like I tell all my clients both local and remote. The key is designing your shower from the beginning right down to grout colour and type.

    Getting a tile layout - a lighting plan and then working backwards from there. Start with a good grout. With my clients I recommend grouts from Mapei or Laticrete. From there we pick a modified thin-set (so important in steam shower builds).

    If you are not certain what these products look like I'll post some pictures below.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Pictures of NobleSeal TS, CIS and Kerdi.

    This is what the rolls look like;

    [​IMG]
    NobleSeal CIS

    [​IMG]
    NobleSeal TS


    [​IMG]
    Kerdi
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  4. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Active Member

    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    Minnesota
    TS is the obvious choice of mine. but we have covered that surely!

    If a client specs orange or another material and I cant talk them into UPgrading to TS I will still build a kerdi shower w/ditra set and some 254R ..(.but first I still have to try and sell them a hydroban wall and ts pan shower before i give in!!!)

    I have a clear track record of noble TS thinbed and full mortar bed pans with and without weep hole drains......and a few different brands of linear drains. It works well with so many drains and nobody at noble is trying to scare you into using their whole system or else !!! no wrrty. ( aka the dream)

    This is how I sell and price my jobs as option number 1. I also like the flex flash and weep divot option.

    If the kirdi drain is an advantage to anyone (especially in new hampshire), i would suggest upgrading your pan material to TS or CIS . ..YES Noble sealant 150 is smelly and hard to spread & clean. but is does what it claims in regards to seaming and waterproofing and yes thinset bonds to it fine.

    I simply have a system that works . I just called Eric @ noble the other day for some reassuring advice in a last minute panic.. You can get the Noble tech support cel phone direct and there is never a dumb question. WHO else offers that kind of tech support but laticrete!
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,183
    Location:
    New England
    THey are all good products. There are advantages and disadvantages of being thicker. Thicker typically provides a better perm rating, but most people aren't building commercial steam showers (at least in a DIY'er forum!). Thicker also means more buildup in the corners or seams since NobleTS is over 3x thicker than Kerdi. If you need a higher perm rating (that is enforced for a commercial steam shower build), KerdiDS vs NobleTS, when you take into account the whole system is so close, it comes mostly down to workmanship, and KerdiDS is still thinner.

    There are technical reasons why modified thinsets were developed...primarily because tiled floors and showers are not constructed the same way that they had been done for centuries. A modified thinset can overcome the limitations of the newer, faster substitutes for a mudded wall or floor (i.e., cbu or a bonded mudbed). Throw in a waterproof membrane that is well engineered, and the need for a modified is diminished. Historically, take a look at the churches, public buildings, and some old castles, etc. that have been standing for many centuries...no modified thinsets were used, and they have some porcelain and glass tile that is as intact today as it was when installed centuries ago...so, if you can replicate the conditions why that worked with modern materials, you can successfully use a dryset thinset and expect similar performance. It is an entirely different story when you directly bond tile of any type to a rigid surface like a bonded mudbed, concrete slab, or cbu. Some people don't see or understand that. There's more engineering in some of these modern membranes and systems than many people realize at first glance. "Convention" or "I've always done it that way" may not see beyond the stereotypes. Use any one correctly, and you can get a great shower. What a professional may look at as critical on a busy workplace with multiple contractors may not be of much concern to a DIY'er, so it somewhat depends on what your priorities are.

    All of the companies listed are reputable, have been in business for many decades, and support their products with both technical, training, and warranty issues. Each product is different, but if installed as designed, works.
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Nice to see you like Noble as well.

    Your last couple sentence are confusing. Is their also an Eric at Laticrete?
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Kerdi vs Noble - Which is better.

    Another advantage I think is worth point out with the Noble products is this diagram below. Notice how the diagram allows the use of NobleSeal TS to be used either as a thin bed or traditional shower thick bed design.

    How nice is that?

    [​IMG]

    Because of this I feel it's the perfect material for all my ACO shower drain installations....
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  8. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Active Member

    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    Minnesota
    OP. Is edited !!! You are easily confused sir!
  9. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

    Messages:
    770
    Location:
    Montreal
    Laticrete also have an Eric , knowledgeable as well .
  10. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Active Member

    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I deal with Henry !!!!!


  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Tell me about it.... LOL

    Eric is a rockstar. I called him about the Ethical Concrete Job and he called me back between meetings at some TCNA convention. Amazing. The last question I sent of to Schluter for help on was answered nearly three and half weeks later once Dale got back from being out of town.

    Locally Schluter has the better support here in Vancouver but I prefer talking to the head techs vs the salesmen on a company anyway. Time lag between a Schluter inquiry can be a day to weeks. Time lag on a Noble inquiry can be a day or two. That's a huge difference to me.

    Richard is a good guy to chat with at Noble as well. Another tech but Eric is still the top dog at Noble Company.
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Henry is a good man. He always forwards my email questions to Arthur Minte at Laticrete. Henry is busy selling stuff in Asia and Australia... The dude should retire already and pass on the reins to his kids and his brothers kids.

    I guess the tile business is in his blood.....
  13. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

    Messages:
    770
    Location:
    Montreal

    You are the man !!! No detours , just straight to the source !!! :)
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    A few years back this question was asked on an online forum;

    Steam shower - Kerdi vs. NobleSeal

    This forum is great. I have been reading it for a while as I am trying to put together a steam room, 36"x72", in my new bathroom. The more I read the more questions I have, but here is what I gathered so far.

    For steam room I need vapor proof isolation, the two options I am considering are Kerdi and Nobleseal TS.

    The Kerdi installation seems straightforward (on paper): use concrete backer board, "wallpaper" the inside of the shower, using unmodified thinset and use "Kerdi" drain. The tile goes on the Kerdi liner using unmodified thinset again.

    Nobleseal TS is a bit more confusing. First, the floor is made using Chloraloy, overlapping but separate from the TS sheet on the walls. Second The Nobleseal TS can be installed on top or behind the CBU. (Use latex modified thinset, common drain with NobleFlex.)

    I kind of lean towards the Nobleseal installation (the thicker the better???) but I am confused with the variations presented in the installation instructions. NobleSeal recommends (??) that on the ceiling the TS be installed behind the backer board, but how do I make that vapor proof when the CBU support screws penetrate the TS? Can I install (is it practical to install the TS inside the shower unit? If not practical, what is the most important disadvantage / difficulty with that installation? Can I install the Nobleseal TS like the Kerdi shower just "wallpapering" the unit with NobleSeal TS - is this what NobleSeal calls "thinset installation"?

    There is a lot of discussion about expansion joints in steam rooms - for my 36x72 room is this a concern? Is it a concern around the ceiling joints? If it is, would Nobleseal TS be better than Kerdi to handle the thermal expansion of the steam room during usage (this is one reason why I am biased towards the thicker product).

    Loeven - Source

    I need a little time but I will give you my view on this question later tonight.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,183
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, before Schluter designed their bonded membrane drain (interesting story, they didn't want to product it themselves, asked lots of big drain companies if they'd build it for them, the all refused - now, Schluter ships about 1200 a week), the only way to use Kerdi was with a clamping drain. You still can, if you really want to, but the bonded membrane flange is vastly superior - why in the world would you want a hunk of deckmud that can get saturated around your drain when you do not need to, and it can all drain directly into the drain verses a bit getting there through the weepholes?
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Random Kerdi Information Tid Bit

    This observation here is not if Kerdi is better than NobleSeal CIS or TS but rather a sheet membrane (either of them vs Ardex 8+9 or a liquid).

    I went to my buddies place yesterday because we had to demo some of his daughters bathroom wall tile. The bathroom is done - we thought! And when the plumber came back the fixtures did not work properly. Turns out the thermostatic control valve has two ports. One that is constant (to be capped if a diverter is to be used) and one that is controlled by the handle on it.

    Of course the plumber hooked up the wrong one!

    I removed two tiles so we could get access to the thermostatic control valve and make the fix.

    What a bitch of a job removing these two tiles - I should have dot set them!!! LOL that's a joke of course.

    In removing the tile and thin-set I started to get a little bit of release at the Kerdi layer. The top side of the fleece sheering off. I had used a large piece of Kerdi to make a one piece custom flashing for the plumbing fixtures.

    This will make the job of re-waterproofing easier.

    Two years ago I removed tile over Aquadefence and when the tile removed it pulled the liquid off the wall board.

    The tile and thin-set I beat with a hammer and chisel.

    Wall board was 1/2" Green EBoard. Kerdi was set with Laticrete 254. Then top coated with Ardex 8+9.

    Made me happy there was the sheet membrane around these plumbing fixtures. Made me happy I did not use some flimsy foam backer board.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Out with the old - In with the New

    [​IMG]

    Sorry but the LynnCar liner had to go.

    Yesterday I fixed the pre-slope.

    in this picture just the bond breaker tape is in place....

    In the next photo you can see I coated the duct tape with a little Ardex 8+9 and started the pre-slope fix.

    Slurry coat is LAticrete 254
    Screed layer is Mapei Fast Setting Screed Mortar.

    [​IMG]

    Because bond breakers are the number one reason tile installs fail this old slab got the diamond block scrub and four cleanings. Two passes with the wire brush. Two more cleanings a vacuum - and then the pre-slope stage.

    Never work over a dirty surface.

    Always consider bond breakers.....
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  18. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Active Member

    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Total tear out!!!! Saw that coming ..., cool pics /process John
    johnfrwhipple likes this.
  19. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I tried to fight back the urges. I wanted to save the old membrane - It's just...... How do I say it...... What are the words.....

    Oh ya. The old membrane was #$^&ing Crap and installed poorly.

    This is a couple shots of the new NobleSeal CIS going in.

    [​IMG]

    Some NobleSeal CIS going in. Piece dry fit and corners creased.

    [​IMG]

    Installed. Once installed I protected the membrane with some 1.5" rigid foam. I then dropped my thin-set bags and mortar mix over top to keep people out and secure the foam still.

    Why do you think I nailed the red board there? That's a 2"x6" wrapped with Tuck Tape.

    Kerdi or NobleSeal CIS - Crack Isolation Membrane

    If your wanting crack isolation protection for your new tile project. Then NobleSeal CIS is the way to go.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
Similar Threads: Kerdi Kerdi
Forum Title Date
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Can you use modified thin set with Kerdi and Ditra?: Yes if you use Ardex Oct 19, 2014
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Kerdi or NobleDeck: Which is better for a Florida Barrier Free Shower with tree root issues? Sep 26, 2014
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Using Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane with a Kerdi Line Drain Sep 18, 2014
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog The 8mil Vapour Proofing Show Down - Laticrete's HydroBan Sheet Membrane vs Schluter's Kerdi Jul 20, 2014
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog How is the Kerdi Schluter system? Jun 23, 2014

Share This Page