Grinder pump question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by newhomeconstruction, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    Hi,

    I'm hopeful that someone can help me. I'm building a new house upstate, we're doing everything (apart from the foundations) ourselves. We were informed that we would need to install a grinder pump in the house, which would run to the main sewer line.
    There is only one toilet in the house, so we didn't think it would be an extreme expense, was i wrong!

    After looking at grinder pumps, we figured a smaller one would suffice. Yet, now we are being told that we have to have one that is minimum 220v and 1 1/2" output. The quotes i have gotten are around the $4,500 mark, and that's even without installation.
    Surely there has to be something under a thousand that we can install?

    We don't have a basement, so it would have to be installed outside, i had planned to build housing under the crawl space and install it there, right under the bathroom.

    The distance from the grinder pump location to the main sewer lines is approx 40 feet.

    please help!
  2. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    You are being robbed at the suggestion of that cost. SHOP, SHOP!

    http://www.*******s.com/Zoeller-507...asement-Sentry-I-M98-Pump?sc=2&category=48900

    http://www.*******s.com/Zoeller-820...uto-Grinder-Pump-230-Volt?sc=2&category=48899

    240 volt or 120 volt, all the same except wire size. I pump an apartment, with a NON grinder, and as long as you can keep tampons and pads out of the system, they work fine. never had a clog in 10 years.

    This unit passes huge solids, and the inspector with his wrong idea of needing a grinder will never know. And you can buy a nice used car with the savings in $ USA made too.

    http://www.*******s.com/Zoeller-820...uto-Grinder-Pump-230-Volt?sc=2&category=48899

    Okay this system blocks my links. Go to I-R-A W-O-O-D-S site with Zoeller in the search and look up residential packaged systems. the last one is about 600 bucks that I posted.

    http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ZOELLER-Simplex-Sewage-System-2MNE5?Pid=search

    You need to know your lift height.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  3. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    Hey Ballvalve,

    The links are not coming out, probably censored in the forums, do you have an email that i can reach you? or even the names of the pumps that i can google them?
    I do know that we MUST have a 1 1/2" output... the co-op type place that it is, have their own sewerage system seperated from the local town's and decided to go the cheap route when they first started construcing and the main sewer lines are only 1 1/2", ergo, why everyone has to even get one of these things.

    thanks again for your help!
  4. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    If the sewer your connecting to is a forced sewer system and not gravity,you will need a high head grinder pump. The non grinding seweage type pumps will not develop enough pressure to overcone the forced sewer main you may be connecting to.

    My advise is to consult the sewer system provider and find out what type sewer system your connecting to. If they say a gravity system then the cheaper pumps will work....if its a pressurized sewer main they will know or can test for the pressure required to overcome the head pressure. Typically systems that I install cost 1500-2000 for the pump,control panel and fiberglass basin....pre-plumbed and ready to install. Installation usually runs 1500-3 grand but that depends on how far i hafta run pipe to connect to the citys sewer system.

    I suggest that you hire a plumber who is experienced with sewage pumping systems and is also familiar with your areas requirements along with consulting the sewer system provider.

    The largest pressuired forced main I have ever installed for a home is 1.5" pvc......use pvc rated for PRESSURE!!!!! Thats all it needs......increasing the pipe size beyond that is counter productive as the outlet to the pumps we use is 1.25".
  5. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Just google graingers and zoeller [the graingers link works] every pump I know has a 2" outlet. You could reduce it.

    or *******s. might need the grinder with that absurd 1.5" drain - are you sure of it?

    EDIT: wonder why terry dislikes ira*W*O*O*D*S?
  6. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Some sewer systems are high pressure forced mains.......typical sewage pumps will not work for these applications. The typical outlet size of the pump is 1.25 and the property owners forced sewer is 1.5" connecting to the citys 1.5" sewer tap. Increasing the pipe size does nothing but make the pump work harder.
  7. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    So what is my option here? Just shell out the thousands? honestly, i don't have that kind of money to spend on a grinder pump.... i would have build myself a bigger house if i knew i needed something that would service a small hospital!
  8. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Well I dont know for a fact that you guys have high pressure forced sewer mains your connecting to. But the deal is if you are......you might need the same pump as a house that has 4 bathrooms......the pump would be the same but the container basins size would be increased because of the 4 baths. This keeps the pump from cycling on and off too much. The pump/control box is what costs the $$$$$$.
  9. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    The co-op keep reccomending an Eone pump to me, but when i was quoted on those, i nearly fainted. So they came back with... it doesn't matter what it is, unless it's LV rated (i could have that wrong, it's 'L' something) and has 1 1/2" output and 220v.

    Trust me, i tried to get more info than that, but that's all they are offering to me... so that's what i have to wrok with... any suggestions?
  10. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Download the specs of the pump they are recommending and shop around for a system that meets or exceeds the specifications they set. They cant require you to install a specific brand.
  11. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    They are trying, apparently their system (twenty years old) was built around the EOne, however, i spoke to a lot of residents and they said they didn't use it. Ask them what they did use and no one can remember, so i'm back to square one... i'm not a plumber, my husband is an electrician, so neither of us have a clue, apart from fixing the basic faucet. so it's like stumbling around in the dark.

    is it possible to use a 2" output and connect it to a 1 1/2" sewer line? Do you know of somewhere that sells used grinder pumps? (i know, i know, terrible idea)
  12. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Theres no need to use 2" pipe on a grinder pump with a 1.25" or 1.5" outlet on a forced high pressure main. Its counter productive. By increasing the line size your just creating more head pressure the pump must overcome to pump the sewage out to the city connection.

    They are requiring a ceratin pump because of its specifications are matched to their forced main...it sounds like. I advise you to get a pump that meets or exceeds the pump they suggest.

    Post the specifications of the pump system they suggest or I really cant help you.
  13. newhomeconstruction

    newhomeconstruction New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    New York
    It's an EOne DH071 http://www.eone.com/sewer_systems/catalog/grinder-pumps/dh071-grinder-pump.htm

    Features

    The DH071 grinder pump station consists of a pump and tank. The grinder pump, motor controls and level-sensing are integrated into a compact unit, easily removable for service.

    Solids are ground into fine particles that pass easily through the pump, check valve and small-diameter pipe lines — even objects that should not be in sewage, such as plastic, rubber, fiber, wood, etc. The 1-1/4" discharge connection can be adapted to any piping materials that meet local code requirements.

    The tank is made from tough, corrosion-resistant HDPE. The optimum tank capacity of 70 gallons is based on computer studies of water usage patterns. A single DH071 is ideal for one, average single-family home and can be used for up to two homes where codes allow and with consent of the factory. The DH071 can accommodate flows of 700 gallons per day.

    The grinder pump is automatically activated and, because it runs infrequently and for very short periods, its annual electric energy consumption is typically that of a 40-watt light bulb.

    E/One grinder pumps do not require preventive maintenance and boast an average of eight to 10 years between service calls. If service is required, the unique, one-piece core eliminates the need for in-field troubleshooting and servicing — the pump core can be quickly pulled out and replaced, meaning minimal maintenance costs and inconvenience for the homeowner.

    Units are available for indoor and outdoor installations. Outdoor units accommodate a wide range of depths.



    http://www.eone.com/drawings/grinder-pumps/WDWiredSpec.doc

    http://www.eone.com/drawings/grinder-pumps/DH071.pdf



    Operational Information

    Motor
    1 HP, 1725 rpm, high torque, capacitor start, thermally protected, 240 or 120 volt, 60 hertz, 1 phase

    Inlet Connections
    4" inlet grommet standard for DWV pipe. Other inlet configurations available from factory.

    Discharge Connections
    Pump discharge terminates in 1-1/4" NPT female thread. Can easily be adapted to 1-1/4" PVC pipe or any other material required by local codes.

    Discharge*
    15 gpm at 0 psig
    11 gpm at 40 psig
    7.8 gpm at 80 psig

    Overload Capacity
    Maximum pressure that the pump can generate is limited by motor characteristics to a value well below the rating of the piping and appurtenances. Automatic reset feature does not require manual operation following overload.

    US and foreign patents issued and pending.

    *Discharge data includes loss through check valve, which is minimal.
  14. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    I will send you a private message with a companies name who can quote you a price on a comparable system.
  15. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Just so the world understands hydraulics, INCREASING pipe size reduces friction and thus head loss. If your pipe is 1/8" or 20" and 50' tall, the pressure gauge at the bottom is reading the same for both pipes.

    In fact, if he had a 200 foot run he would HAVE to increase pipe size to reduce head loss.
  16. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Infact he would not have to increase the size of the pipe for a 200' run. Please understand that water is heavy approx 8 pounds a gallon......increasing the pipe size increases the water in the pipe and that increases the head pressure the pump must overcome.. We are speaking of a FORCED HIGH PRESSURE SEWER MAIN. Increasing the pipe size is counter productive.



    Too big can be just as bad as too small. Take it froma guy who has installed 100's of high pressure forced sewers.

    What size pipe do you think the city has for their forced main sewers with literally hundreds of grinders connected to it? Most around here are 2" for the typical neighborhood st with hundreds of homes connected.

    For example I will use a small grinder......such as the saniflow toilet system. It calls for a 3/4 or 1" drain. If you increase the size of the drain to 1.5" the pump will not produce enough power to overcome the head pressure.
  17. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    The last grinder I installed was a duplex system with a 48"x60" basin. The pumps would alternate in operation as to keep both pumps exercised. This system was a 4 float system,consisting of on,off,reset and high water.Each pump has its own stop valve and check valve and connect to a common 1.25" tee and then discharges out of the tank 1.25".
    I was specifically instructed by the design engineer not to exceed a 1.5" pipe diameter and doing so would increase the head pressure on the pump.

    Basically on a high pressure forced sewer your pump has to be strong enough not to just have enough head pressure to pump it to the city......your pump has to have enough power to exceed the head pressure of the citys main also and that can have 75# of head pressure. I had one that exceeded 125 pounds and the city had to add another lift station to relieve the pressure so we could get a pump that would be powerful enough without spending 3 times as much.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  18. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Sir, I risk being unkind about your understanding of hydraulics and water flow through pipes. Therefore, I hope that valveman or someone better educated in the flow of water in pipes [fairly well defined prior to the 1800's] will give you a bit of information. I would probably do it in an unkind manner.

    Forced high pressure mains is IRRELEVANT to this discussion. Once again, a 20 foot diameter pipe provides far less restriction to flow than a 1.5 or 2'" pipe. The 20' diameter pipe gives exactly the same reading on a pressure gauge at 500' height as the 1/4" line. Have a look at Agricola's mining engineering book from 1572. He describes this 'phenomena' in very good detail. I have that first edition in Latin and the translation by our ex president Hoover, a scholar in Latin. Physics has not changed since, no matter if one installs "high pressure grinder pumps".

    If you are trying to discuss the need to keep solids in suspension due to flow VELOCITY, and not to settle in a 20 foot diameter pipe, then I understand the point.

    Your engineer was either missing a few cylinders, did not explain his logic to you in a correct manner, or [as it should be interpeted] he wanted you to use the smaller pipe size to keep a specific flow rate so that solids and weighted matter did not drop out of suspension.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  19. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    With a forced main you have check valves at the city connect and at the pump. The pump must overcome the head pressure pushing back on those two check valves froma dead start. Do you think two 2" check valves would be easier to open rather htan 1.5" check valves with a constant head trying to keep them closed? If larger pipe is better why dont we use 3" pipe with 3" check valves......how much force would it take to open a three inch check valve with 75 psi pushing on the otherside? Do the math on the area of a 3" check then multiply the sq inch area......75 pounds is pushing on each square inch.

    Sure larger pipes have less friction but thats not the only consideration when pumping into a high pressure sewage main with a grinder pump.

    Also with a larger pipe,solids would collect and stick to the walls of the pipe.......it would not clean itself properly.

    A 1.5" diameter pipe has 1.767 sq in of area. A 2" pipe has 3.142 of area.Thats a difference of 1.375 sq in more area for the 2". With 2" check valves installed it would require the pump to develop 78% more force to open the 2" check valve. compared to the 1.5"......and you have two check valves.

    I copied this below from copper.org. I wouldn't use copper for a grinder installation but for friction loss purpose,it proves a point.
    .............................................................................................................................
    Table 6, page 30, shows the
    relationship among flow, pressure
    drop due to friction, velocity and tube
    size for Types K, L and M copper
    water tube. These are the data required
    to complete the sizing calculation.

    NOTE: Values are not given for flow
    rates that exceed the maximum
    recommendation for copper tube.For the tube sizes above about
    11/4 inch, there is virtually no difference
    among the three types of tube in terms
    of pressure loss.

    This is because the
    differences in cross sectional area of
    these types become insignificant as tube
    size increases. In fact, for this reason, the
    value for Type M tube given in Table 6
    can be used for DWV tube as well.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  20. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Lets take your example of a 200' forced main sewer and really see if the pipe size needs to be increased. It will be fun!!!! I promise. Ok,the grinder pumps I install we use sch 40 pvc pressure pipe main line from the pump basin to the city connect. Typically this is buried 12-18" deep in my area.

    Now what would be the friction loss of 1.5" pvc for a 200' run compared to a 2" pvc 200' run? Well friction loss depends also on the velocity of the sewage being pumped amoung other things like temp,viscosity etc. but we are not concerned with those right now,just friction loss at a certain flow rate. I beleive the last pump I installed was pumping 15 gpm so that is what I will use in this example regarding friction loss for our high poressure sewer main.

    According to Charlotte pipe,1.5" pvc at a flow rate of 15gpm has a friction loss of .66 psi per 100' of pipe. We have 200' run so lets double the .66psi and that gives us a 1.32 psi pressure drop from friction. WOW a whole pound and a half!!!! LOL

    Ok lets do the same for 2" sch 40 pvc. Its friction loss at a flow rate of 15gpm per 100' of pipe is .19psi. For a 200' run,the total pressure drop from friction would be .38 psi....not even a 1/2psi is lost due to friction.

    So like I said no pipe size increase would be needed for a 200' run. It makes no sense to increase the pipe size from 1.5" to 2" to save 1psi pressure loss from friction.......espcially when the check valves in the 2" line would be harder to open when the pump kicks on with a static head keeping them closed. The 2" check valve has more surface area and would require more force to open compared to a 1.5" check. Approx 78% more area for the 2" vs the 1.5" check valve. The one psi you would gain by using 2" pvc would be lost due to the check valve issue.

    I hope this helps you.
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