Gary's "trick" and how effective is Iron Out?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by LLigetfa, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    BIRM does not oxidize iron. It is a catalyst. That would be like saying stepping on the gas makes your car go forward. It doesn't. It increases the speed but doesn't make it go forward. A catalyst increases reaction but it doesn't make it react. That is the ultimate basics in water treatment media. You said it yourself when you quoted the word "enhance". But tio say that BIRM oxidizes iron is not correct. You need to understand what catalyst is and does.

    Also not correct--again--in describing me...it's getting kind of funny. I am not sure what works for Kinetico or why that was even brought up---again. But I seem to remember someone going on and on and on and on and on about the Kinetico warranty and then being proven he was wrong. Instead of coming back and admitting, he claimed that Kinetico, Inc. was keeping him in the dark---again.

    If you don't know what the picture is, then I am not surprised by your knowledge (or lack thereof) of just what it is we are talking about. Can someone else help him here?
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    I don't think so. I tried showing Gary a cutaway drawing of my tank but he still described it as something different.

    I don't have a retention tank. I have a hydro-pneumatic precipitation tank purpose built to precipitate iron through oxidation.
  3. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    since we are not allowed to use technical terms like catalyst, words that have more the three syllables, nor are we allowed to use math, charts, field experience, or common sense, I am sorry but I dont think I can be of much help either.
  4. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    Oversaturated - According to free dictionary dot com, it means to saturate to excess. In my feeble, two-month-old mind, if you watered your yard till it was FULL of water, it would be saturated. If you added even more water, until there were puddles sitting on the ground, that would be oversaturated.

    Precipitation tank - According to wordnik dot com, a receptacle into which a liquid is run to give an opportunity for any solid matter carried in it to be precipitated. Sometimes precipitation is promoted in such a tank by adding certain ingredients or by a change of temperature.

    According to science dictionary, a sewage tank in which a chemical is added to the sewage before it passes to the sedimentation tanks

    Retention tank - According to my research, mostly used to remove E. coli or coliform. "The use of retention tanks for iron bacteria, sulfur and iron applications is a way to create extra income and service calls for in home sale companies and online companies who are either ignorant or looking for residual income from unsuspecting customers." http://www.***********.com/retention_tanks.htm

    Another site says: THERE IS A DRAIN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK. OPEN IT PERIODICALLY TO FLUSH THE SETTLED SOLIDS OUT. SOLIDS DO NOT SETTLE PERFECTLY. OFTEN THEY WILL STICK TO THE SIDE OF THE TANK. THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO FLUSH THEM OUT IS TO EMPTY THE TANK. OPEN THE INLET AND ALLOW WATER TO FLOW IN WHILE THE DRAIN IS STILL OPEN. THIS WILL ALLOW THE TANK TO BE CLEANED MORE THOROUGHLY. RUN THE WATER UNTIL IT APPEARS CLEAR. (LL, based on your iron problems, you might consider doing this if you haven't been already. Just a thought.)
  5. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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  6. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Using all them teckacal words is done confoosing da ignernt folks what posts da queggins an is only wantin to fix der problem widout spendin no money or lerning nottin

    Check list for the ignorant

    1 -smell your water. Does it smell like anything other than water?
    2 -taste your water. Does it taste like anything other than water?
    3 -rub your water between your thumb and index finger. Does it feel like anything other than water
    4 -look at your water. Does it look like anything other than water

    See how much money you saved by not buying a test kit? Apply that savings to a six pack of beer, drink it and you can forget about your water. Repeat if necessary.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    I do have a question about testing for iron. My water guy tells me that I have to take a sample before the micronizer and before the precipitation tank. He says his test only detects ferrous, not ferric iron.
  8. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    Location:
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    So back to the OP's question. I have posted what Gary said in another thread:

    Granted, I am the FNG DIY owner, so perhaps I misunderstand the controls; for sure, I know that different valves operate differently, so I can only speak to the little I know about the 7000SXT. But...

    If my B1 cycle is set to 10 minutes, unplugging the valve to make it backwash for 15-20 minutes makes sense if you really want to stir the resin and get all the loose junk off.

    But if my BD cycle is set for 60, and I wait 10 minutes into the cycle to draw the SIO/brine into the resin, then unplug it... what will happen is it will draw SIO/brine under power for 10 minutes, then draw SIO/brine for 20 minutes (or until the air check is hit), and when I plug it back in, I still have 50 minutes remaining on that position (valve remembers last position at time of power interruption). So what I am doing is basically extending the BD cycle by 20 minutes, all the while either SIO/brine is flowing thru the resin, or rinse water is... wouldn't it make more sense to draw for 10 mins, unplug the valve and bypass the water flow, allowing more time for the SIO to contact and work on the iron? Then when ready (20 minutes later, or 3 hours later, whichever one prefers for contact time), put the valve back in service, plug in the valve, and let the cycle finish?

    I can see where introducing SIO on a regular basis might not make more contact time necessary, particularly if one follows the instructions for SIO use, but it seems to me that more contact time in resin that has gone untreated for some time would only remove more iron than just letting some flow thru without stopping.

    Flame suit on...
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Officially that would be called 'ponding' but...

    The context of your use of "oversaturated" was concerning salt brine in the salt tank of a water softener.

    You can not "oversaturate" salt brine. Well UNLESS you are talking about the undissolved salt in the tank. You can't "oversaturate" a glass or pitcher of sweetened ice tea either, unless you're talking about the undissolved sugar laying in the bottom of the glass or pitcher.

    In relation to the air injection iron filter system we are talking about, the oxidation takes place in the retention tank and the filter. The above description says the precipitation has already occurred when the water is run into the receptacle.

    In this air injection iron system the precipitation is not happening fully before he is sending the water out to his filter. That happens when there is insufficient TIME (retention) for the oxidation to complete and the solids to fall out of the solution/water exiting the tank. The incomplete precipitation is OK because Birm is an excellent sediment filter mineral but, if it loads up with rust, it can not "enhance" the remaining need for more oxidation and that allows ferrous iron out of the filter into his softener. Probably along with some of the precipitates (ferric iron/rust) to foul the resin.

    That is from budget water... and I caution anyone that believes their claim that retention is not needed for iron removal with an air injection Birm filter system.

    Their only way to get around using a retention tank is to inject chlorine constantly. "For example a simple chlorine feeder and Terminoxâ„¢ tank can remove iron bacteria and sulfur from problem well water with no carbon tanks or retention tanks at all." Note that iron is not mentioned.
  10. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Alaska

    Thanks for the responses on the tanks. Helps us all to understand more.

    As for ponding (never heard it before, had to look it up, so thanks to Gary for giving me "The Word of The Day"!

    Ponding is a term that refers to the unwanted pooling of water, typically on a flat roof.

    When water is diverted into a lower area that has no outlet or is not suitable for drainage, water will begin to pool, and over time the weight of the water will create a deeper pool allowing more water to sit, eventually creating a permanent water feature.

    If I water my yard too much, and there is pooling, it is oversaturated, but it's going to drain soon enough.
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Correct.

    The brining usually takes 20 minutes to be fully drawn out of the tank and have the air check close. And recall adding the extra 2 gallons of water to the salt tank, that will probably take longer to draw it out than your normal salt dose does right? When done you want all the water in the tank to be replaced so the IO and additional brine is gone. So you probably would need more time to do that wouldn't you think? But as I've said, do it whichever way you want to, or not...

    That's correct.

    I suggest repeating the process is best. You get more salt (2 gals*3lbs each gal and each time = 12 additional total lbs) to help you clean the resin instead of shutting off the water to only add more time to one time of the process while using only the normal sat dose. Plus you have an additional nice long backwash before hitting the resin with more fresh IO.

    BS, discuss instead of nit picking gotchyas and anyone can have an intelligent conversion. Well, LOL not so much with cartoonyguy Tommy and water solutions Kinetico salesman Andy...
  12. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    Gary, I spent the better part of an hour listening to a rant from my boss that had nothing, absolutely, nothing to do with me. This was not an intelligent conversation, and, it was amazing. Her eyes were flaring, her nostrils were flaring, and finally, when I had enough of it, I said, " this is really no big deal." Her face turned red & purple, her veins popped out, so, I said it again, lol. I was now starting to enjoy it, lol. I wish I could think of a nic name for her. Somehow or another, I am sure... I will be implicated into this because she was just looking for a fight. This was more than mare nit picking, she was out to crucify someone. I say, not me, not me. lol. Now, today, I get to work with the, great one. :) lol.
  13. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Intelligent discussion? With you? Really? Nit-picking? If I wanted to, I could go back through literally hundreds of threads here and elsewhere where YOU are ALWAYS the first one to start with the nit-picking, insults, belittling comments etc and now you have the BALLS to post that BS? Give us a break Einstein and take you meds for a change.
    Even when I leave your comments alone you can't stop with your usual crap IE the quote above. You act like a 3 year throwing a tantrum most of the time. How on earth do you expect anyone to take your posts seriously?
  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Location:
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    LOL how true! I almost spit my coffee all over my screen when I read that. It's just like watching a dubbed foreign film. What you hear doesn't match with what you see!

    My turn to nit pick... he said "intelligent conversion", not conversation, not discussion, conversion. Don't expect him to convert to anything intelligent.
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