Gary's "trick" and how effective is Iron Out?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by LLigetfa, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    When I first started using Iron Out, I would just dissolve a cupful in a gallon of water, dump it in the brine tank, and let the one regen cycle run. Afterward, I would notice the smell of iron in the shower. Over time found that running a second regen would clear that up so I switched to doing two back-to-back regens, the first with IO, the second without. After replacing my resin, I started increasing the contact time.
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    The contact time is part of the equation. Using IO regularly, or a drip system, or letting the IO have extended contact times less frequently will all have simlar affects. I prefer the system saver salt since it eliminates the need for remembering to add the IO, citric acid, or filling the drip system. The real solution is to remove the iron prior to the softener. :)
  3. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Liggy; It's been awhile and I'm lazy so what are your water tested conditions? I'm wondering why if you have an iron filter you are getting iron into the softener.
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I see now that he says he was thinking that unplugging the control valve shut off the water flow too. lol I thought he was smarter than that but I see I was wrong.

    Maybe you should ask him what he surmised the 20 minutes of the valve stopped mid cycle in backwash and then slow rinse/brine draw, with the water shut off and then plugging it back in would do for the softener.

    It seems you don't know if it is supposed to be clear or not but... you have said the water out of your "precipitation" tank is quite dirty. Usually that tank is called a retention tank. Do you know why? Do you think you are getting enough "precipitation" in yours?

    After all is said, it is your air injection iron filter that isn't working well and messing up your softener.

    You can do it anyway you want to or not do it at all, neither way is going to help because the cause of the softener problem is your air injection iron filter allowing iron into the softener.

    If they were working correctly, there would be no iron getting into the softener and would have no need for any type of resin cleaning.

    Question, for you and Hawk et al, when you shut off the water during brine draw so you get more contact time, how much time does it take for the IO to lose it's ability to scavenge iron?

    And then what are you going to do if not turn on the water so more IO solution can be drawn into the resin bed and, how long will you let the water flow to drain so as to replace all the used up IO in the tank?

    You can ask Hawk what your Birm filter is for too.
  5. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    You seem to have a reading comprehension issue. The flow is stopped after the brine has been drawn out of the brine well. As dittohead said, you can here the change in sound when it happens.

    Iron is oxidized by the air entrainment of the micronizer before it enters the precipitation tank where the iron globs together into rust particles large enough to be trapped by the filter. The water leaving the precipitation tank has visible rust. I have an outside hose bib that is Tee'd into the unfiltered line as well as additional hose bibs Tee'd in after the iron filter. The filtered water is clear and used to water the foundation beds so as not to rust stain my white siding. The unfiltered water is used to water the lawn and the water from it looks disgusting. The iron filter may not remove 100% of the iron but it certainly does remove most of it.

    I know something has to be done to stop the water hammer and flow reversal from shaking up the filter bed pack. I plan to put a checkvalve and a small expansion tank on the iron filter output
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    It appears someone on this site does not understand basic physics. No surprise since the same person also believes things that move do not wear out faster if they move more... what can you say, roll your eyes, move on.
  7. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    That would be my advice also. Most folks don't keep good track of their equipment (especially the younger one's with jobs and kids)

    Liggy; Have you tested the water for iron just before it enters your softener?
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    And yet it's you that doesn't understand that my shutting off the power while in the brine draw cycle after a specific length of time, leaves some fresh IO solution and brine in the "brine well" as you call the salt tank, where dittohead Alan has you sucking it all out of the "brine well" at once.

    Actually the oxidation starts in the pipe going to your "precipitation tank" after the air injector but the oxidation isn't complete yet.

    It, the oxidation, is supposed to complete IN the RETENTION TANK and precipitate out of the water onto the bottom of the RETENTION TANK.

    And that loads up the Birm and requires a longer backwash and if not the Birm can't oxidize any ferrous iron, and that oxidizing the ferrous iron that gets through the air injection is why you use Birm instead of a simple sediment removal mineral in the filter.

    LOL so you're using your filtered water for irrigation, probably exceeding the SFR gpm of the Birm filter after not allowing enough contact time for the air to oxidize all the iron.

    The red part, that's like saying, it's a great car, it starts most of the time, or, it's only a small tumor.

    Water hammer is caused by too high water pressure, and Autotrol flapper valves slamming shut. Too high water pressure increases your peak demand flow rate through the water treatment system, especially the Birm filter and reduces contact time of the air injection part.

    I suspect you have turned up your pressure due to the irrigation needs.

    I see there are four of us now, the CalifornianPCdude, cartoonyKid, 1stTimeSoftenerguy and me, all asking you why your softener is seeing any iron.

    Maybe you could explain that to us and see if anyone but me mentions insufficient contact time for the air to work completely based on the size and maybe the type of your "precipitation tank" that over the last year plus you've consistently insisted to me is just fine and not the problem.

    Now, since IIRC, this is the first time in over a year plus that I've heard of the water hammer problem and you treating irrigation water with your air injection and Birm filter, I'll mention the very high probability of the Birm filter most likely being WAY too small.

    And especially if you are using water in the house while watering the plants etc.. Your "precipitation tank" will be WAY TOO SMALL too. all while you've been blamming my "trick" for not working for your softener.... what a guy.
  9. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    I don't have my own test kit but I did take a few samples to the guy that rebedded my softener and iron filter. His test kit could not detect any iron at the time.

    I think the bed pack shakeup is a variable thing and depends a lot on what the pressure happens to be at the moment the valve slams shut. In fact I'm sure of it and proved it in testing. Periodically I will jack up the pressure to get better bed agitation and noticed that at the higher pressure, the pack gets seriously disturbed so I don't need to test it. When I shake the pack as mentioned, the iron is visible.
  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Location:
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    There you go imagining facts not in evidence. I don't have an irrigation system. I do have a simple garden hose connected before the iron filter for an oscillating lawn sprinkler but it doesn't get used much, in fact hardly ever.

    The other hose bibs connected to filtered water, feed soaker hoses that don't have any significant flow rate. Those too, hardly ever get used, and are just there for when we go on vacation. The wife captures rain water for the foundation beds and will on occasion, use the hose and a hand nozzle if she runs out of water in the rain barrels.

    As for the higher pressure, I do enjoy it for the shower. The micronizer bypass has been reduced to keep air sucking at the higher pressure and that rate limits the GPM. The downside of that is that the backwash GPM on the iron filter is marginal. That in and of itself would not cause iron bleed-through, since a dirty media bed filters better than a clean one. When I notice a reduction of flow through it, I will jack up the pressure higher, open up the micronizer bypass to increase GPM, and give the bed a thorough manual backwash or two. It's usually the same time that I will do a manual Iron Out resin cleaning.
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    LOL There you go again with vague instructions, deliberately so that you can later claim that we didn't follow them to a T. What is the point of stopping the draw and rinsing out the Iron Out right away rather than giving it some contact time to work?
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    It's still acceptable to call that 'irrigation'. And I am commenting on your statements.

    Still acceptable to be called 'irrigation'.

    But loaded up Birm can't oxidize any ferrous iron getting through the air oxidation... Reading that leaves no doubts as to what is causing your softener to have to deal with iron that gets through the air injection and Birm filter. I guess you mistakenly think backwashing is going to get all the rust off the Birm...

    By the time you notice it it's way too late.

    Are you just playing dumb or is it factual? The slow rinse/brine draw draw doesn't stop unless you turn off the water!! I didn't say to turn it off, remember? So if you want more contact time, shut off the water for as long as you want to; really it's OK and just fine with me.

    BTW, I gave you the specific explicit precise directions of my "trick" as cartonykid Tommy called it, a few days ago and you have been questioning them ever since.
  13. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    BIRM does not change ferrous iron to ferric iron through oxidation. It is a catalyst. Period. Oxygen is the oxidant. BIRM works under certain water conditions and not under others.

    Call it a retention tank or a precipitation tank, doesn't really matter as long as it has a drain at the bottom to remove sediment or precipitants.

    Air injection systems using a precipitation tank uses the tank for two purposes; one--to oxidize iron (and other elements) into ferric state and two--to create dissolved oxygen levels of 15% or more in the water to be even and consistent in order to make the BIRM work effectively.

    If the water coming out of the top of the precipitation tank is already ferric (red water), then I recommend draining the precipitants more often. If ferric iron is chronic, then I would recommend adding Filter Ag to the top of the BIRM. I don't believe BIRM is intended to filter but to act as a catalyst in enhancing iron conversion.

    Water enters the tank through an elevated tube and exits through the top. The tank has a drain lower than the incoming tube. Neglecting to drain the precipitants causes the precipitated iron to accumulate and rise above the incoming tube, causing it to agitate and travel north out of the tank.
    [​IMG]
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    "Birm, acting as a catalyst between the oxygen and the soluble iron compounds, enhances the oxidation reaction of Fe++ to Fe+++". That would be ferrous to ferric no, and on the surface of the Birm right?

    That's from:
    http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/ion_exchange_resin_and_filter_media/birm_2350.pdf

    Yes that works for Kinetico and their sales people like you, and other national companies that want to be different (read keep their customers in the dark) so they make up their own names for things instead of using the industry standard names. Retention means time and it takes the right amount of retention time for precipitation to take place.

    So you are saying retention/contact time isn't involved with a "precipitation" tank.

    "The physical characteristics of Birm provide an excellent filter media".

    That is also from the link above, repeated here;
    http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/ion_exchange_resin_and_filter_media/birm_2350.pdf

    Two serious errors in one post Andy.... and I didn't count the one where you skipped over retention/contact time. And what is that picture supposed to show us?
  15. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    "cartonykid" I can't find this word in the dictionary and spell check is having a hemorrhage with it too. LOL

    If it's supposed to be cartoon(y) kid, I'm not the one with Donald Duck for an avatar which BTW is nice but incorrect for the quote below it which is more correctly associated with Porky Pig.

    Why are you dragging me into this? I'm just by-standing watching the fun although what I have gleaned from this mostly useless and stupid conversation is that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides and the juvenile need to make sarcastic remarks based on improper word use or poor descriptions of either processes, equipment or both. Keep it up though, it's most entertaining and perhaps the guy that lambasted me on another thread for remarks I made there has by now noticed that I am rarely the instigator here. LOL
  16. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    From www.dixionary.com: cartonykid - [kahr-tony kid]
    noun The picture of a lost kid on the back of certain milk cartons.
  17. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Wow, who'd a thunk. They are just making up words now aren't they?
  18. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    Someone is making up words...
  19. Cookie

    Cookie .

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  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yeah I've noticed that too, like "oversaturated", once something is saturated, you don't get it more saturated. Or, "precipitation tank" for retention tank. Or garden hose to hook to a sprinkler that isn't a type of irrigation.

    Cartoonyguy Tommy....
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