fleck 7000sxt Can I stop raw water bypass during regen?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by mtswash, Mar 30, 2012.

  1. mtswash

    mtswash New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Hello,

    I have a 2 tank system both with the 7000sxt valves, there has been some confusion as to if they can be programmed so when one is in regeneration it won't pass raw water through, can this be accomplished through the programming? I can't seem to figure out, I've been told that they shouldn't bypass during regen, and I've been told that yes they will and the only way to not allow raw water to pass through is to install a solenoid hooked to the aux power on the outflow side. Obviously the goal with two tanks would be not to have any hard water pass through, so I'm hoping there is a way in the programming to accomplish this, so far I can't seem to find??? Thanks for any help on this.
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    In the manual that I have on page 8 is the steps for the programing.
    If you have one regen or clean at midnight and the other regen or clean at 3am
    The on line company is no help in setting them up?
  3. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    What you are looking for is currently only available from Culligan, the Hi-Flo 22. It is the 7000 with proprietary programming the ability to activate Aquamatic service valve to create a no hard water bypass. It also has the Culligan Aqau sensor available.

    Short answer, I am not aware of any way to make the standard SXT into a NHWBP, but I will call Fleck today and see if one of my other ideas may work.

    There are a few other boards available for the 7000 with more programming capability than the standard SXT.

    We are hoping that when the 7000 series goes in for updating, (probably 2 years off), they will add this option to allow for easy "twin alternating" or "NHWBP". I will follow up on this topic later today.
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    I just got it confirmed and I recieved the new drawings and manual for the 7000 twin alternating/NHWBP designs. The manuals I have are rough drafts as are the drawings, but I assume this will be a great option in the near future and will replace the 9500 in many applications. It will also use off the shelf components, only a new timer board and cover will be different. I will review it when I get my test units in.
  5. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    I have two manuals for the 7000, the old one with more of the SE control and then the newer one with the SXT control.
    The page 8 is in the old manual.

    What is only available from Culligan?
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Your description is a bit unclear as to what you have but it sounds like two softeners in parallel and something is using water during regeneration of either.

    Normally open solenoid valves triggered/closed when a regen starts is about the only solution other than to stop using water when a unit has to regenerate. You must be using water 24/7 in a carwash etc..

    Shutting off water by any means while a regen is being done cuts your flow rate to whatever is using water in half. If that is the case, I say the equipment has been misapplied and you should have bought two twin tank type softeners and plumbed them in parallel. You'd get soft water through one tank of each until one regenerated and then you'd still get soft water from both softeners although still have a small flow reduction due to backwash and rinse flows but not as much as now.
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    Culligan has a 7000 based twin alternator system. I beleive it can also be used in a system 13 format as well. It uses Aquamatic shut valves on the outlet which are solenoid controlled.

    It looks like this will be a standard option in the near future. It is needed for making highly efficient water softeners for larger houses. There are a lot of ways to do it, but the 7000 platform makes the most sense.

    Many customer have large houses with 1-1/2" plumbing and multiple bathrooms. A single 7000 is not large enough to meet the code design, so the next alternative is the 2850. This gets very expensive and there are other design issues that need to be considered. A progressive 7000, system 6, system 7, and system 13 would fill a huge gap in the product line.
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Clack has had that type system for a number of their controls if not all of them and it's been available for years now.
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    True, but Fleck has had twin alternating perfected with the 9000 and 2900 series. Clack relies on the MAV system. It is a great design, but it does not compare to a dual piston design. The 7000 will use a solenoid controlled Aquamatic, the same design that has been around for more years than we have been working on systems. It is a relaible, simple, and relatively inexpensive design. This design, and the MAV design are both good workarounds to the dual piston design. Ideally, a reworked 9500 in plastic with higher flow rates would be the better solution, but the cost of a mold and the R&D costs would probably make the ROI exceed 10-20 years. Hard to justify when you can simply modify a 7000 and achieve a similar result. And... dont be surprised if Fleck has another trick up their sleeve... I am waiting to see the new board, it may have a unique capability that will surprise the industry. I cant say what I think it is until the board is officially released, but... :)
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Sorry. I'm missing what that does for Mtswash now?

    Did you call Fleck like you said you would?
  11. mtswash

    mtswash New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Gary - Thanks for the input... You are correct on the business, these have replaced old 2900 brass valves, overall I do like the simple programming and they have worked great until time to regen... I'm new at this softener stuff so have been trying to learn... Each tank has 4 cuft of resin and these are the hi flo 7000 valves, the service that installed swears they aren't supposed to by pass raw water in regen? Anyway I was initially worried about a pressure drop, but not a problem running both tanks in unison, meter delayed regens, one sched for 12:30 the other at 3:00.

    Also, during (when I have manually tested so people using water) and after a regen seems to be a hi level of salt in water along with hardness for several hundred gallons before it clears up? Why would it take that long? Again thanks in advance for any help!
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    Yes, and as was stated, earlier, the new NXT board will allow for multiple configurations, system 4, 5, 6, 7, and 13 should all be possible now.
  13. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Location:
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    The NXT on the 7000, now there is some thing.....

    That board has under gone some changes from the first ones, looking at the two that I have on the bench ...
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    It is not unusual to have control valves poorly set up from companies that do not regularly do larger systems, and... it is not that uncommon for the best companies to simply forget to make the necessary changes inside the control valve to make them work correctly.

    You need to check two itmes to start. The Drain Line Flow Control button, (DLFC) and the injector color. We use generic charts for injector sizing, but it should be done based on your salt settings and other factors. Assuming your system is set up correctly, you should have a 16" x 65" tank.

    8 pounds of salt per cu. ft. = 32 pounds, or 11 gallons of brine water.

    Brine draw time, approximately 20-30 minutes

    Brine draw rate approximately .35-.55 gpm

    Injector sizes that can be used for your system = #1 white , #2 blue, or #3 yellow. A smaller injector can cause the problem you are describing. You also need to check the DLFC button, assuming standard water temperatures, you should have a 7 GPM button. If you have the manual, you will see where these items are and how to remove them for inspection. The DLFC button is directional, if it is installed backwards, it will not be accurate. The water should flow through the numbers.

    I can also send you a programming cheat sheet for that system on Monday if you want to confirm the programming is correct.



    Let us know what you find.

    You can add a no hard water bypass to that unit easily with a aquamatic valve and the available optional micro-switch that is controlled by the brine cam.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The control may not be programmed correctly, like using too much salt for the length of rinse time. Can you get into the programming to see the number of minutes etc. that the various cycle positions of as regeneration run for? If so list the times here.

    Obviously the guys that installed or sold you the units don't understand what it is and how it works. I'd get back to tham and tell them to check with their distributor or Fleck about it having NHWBP which it isn't supposed to have yet.

    And ask them what teh programming is in minutes etc.. Then have them tell you how to get into that programming if you don't know how and check what they have told you.

    I see where dittohead has listed the brine draw as 20-30 minutes. I don't recall the 7000 programing but brine draw is usually part of slow rinse, so it's the slow rinse/brine draw cycle position and a specific length of time is programmed which is more like an hour total.

    The slow rinse continuing to run after the first 20-30 minutes needed to draw all the salt solution from the salt tank (down to the air check) flushes the resin with salt solution AND evacuates excess salt to drain. If that time is not set right it can leave salt in the resin tank that the final rinse may be too short to remove but...

    What type test did you do to be able to say there is too much salt left in the water for hundreds of gallons?

    How much raw water hardness, iron, manganese do you have?
  16. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    I should have stated it differently, the brine draw time is the amount of time that it takes to remove the brine solution from the brine tank. The Brine draw cycle, or better stated, the "brine and slow rinse" total time should be an hour.

    If they left in a small injector, it could be taking too much time to remove the brine solution from the brine tank. This is a common problem when these valves are being used on larger tanks. The injector needs to be replaced to meet the system design. This is often overlooked.

    NHWBP is available, it is just rarely used and requires a simple microswitch and an autotrol or similar line shutoff. It could be wired with the Brine cam microswitch, this would be activated at all times during regeneration. It is the regeneration lockout microswitch. Most companies that need NHWBP in a smaller valve will use the 2510 since it is readily available, simple, inexpensive, and does not require any external changes.
  17. mtswash

    mtswash New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Guys - Thank you for your help! I'm out of town for weekend, but will check sizing Monday morning, what I can tell you is Cedar Rapids water is pretty good they soften down to 8 gpg and no iron or other..

    As far as what test I have done to say too much salt inlines after a regen, I tested using the hach hard water test and the reading was off the chart, never had that before... tasted the water and very salty, so salt throwing test way off, I continued to monitor the water usage by using the 7000 screen counting down the gallons used between the two, seemed to take roughly 500 per unit, before water testing 0 gpg.... I'm really confused as to why it would take that long to get to 0 gpg, I could understand possibly some but would think it would be flushed out fast or faster than dragging it out that much?

    Programming from what I recall being in the unit a far as cycle settings are:

    backwash 10
    brine draw slow rinse 60
    second back wash 5
    rapid rinse (they had initially at 5) now set to 10
    brine fill 12

    last time out they did switch the size of something to a 7? I remember them talking about that...
  18. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    It should take very little water to rinse down a salty system. Doing feild service, we would put the system into brine draw, get a couple gallons of brine into the system and run the water through the cold plumbing to rinse it out quickly to confirm the repair was done, rinsing out a completely salty unit should only take 5-10 minutes. Can you post a picture of the installation, I think that would clear a lot up. If a system takes a very long time to rinse the salt out, it is usually caused by a problem with the riser/o-ring area since it is only diluting the salt, not forcing it through the resin, but if that were the case you would never test zero GPG soft water. Lets see what you got.

    Your programming is pretty standard, but we need the brine line flow control size, tank size, etc. The injector size is also critical. It will be labeled on the back of the valve, but these are easily changed internally so they usually do not match up on larger systems.

    Adding length to the rapid rinse is never a proper way to rinse salt from a system, the salt should be cleared from the system during the 60 minute brine and slow rinse cycle.
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