Fleck 5810XTR2 2.5cu ft softener setting help

[uniTex]

Hi,

I used the hach-b test and we have 8-9 gpg depending not the day I test, but will set to 11gpg for occasions when hardness is higher. I just poured the gravel bed and 2.5cu ft of purolite C100E resin and our plumber connected to the house's softener loop. It's powered off until tomorrow.

We are a family of 5 with 3 pre-teens. My wife likes to take one to two hour long baths with the water running the entire time with the handles turned 50% open, drain open draining the water while refilling with hot water to keep the bath tub about 1/3rd to 1/2 full with constant water warm. She uses 200-400gallons of water each day depending on how long she is in the bath.

We have 1" PEX coming into house from our 5/8" x 3/4" municipal water meter.

1" PEX comes in/out of the softener and stays 1" as the trunk line for house and also runs directly to our 2 tankless rinnais in parallel with the rinnai ez-connect cable. The tankless use 3/4" pex and run directly to our master shower Brizo Thermostatic 3/4" supply valve with three 3/4" volume controls.

Fleck 5810XTR2 with 2.5cu ft resin
11gpg
municipal water, no iron
13x54 resin tank
18x40 brine tank
I would like to salt usage setting to be 10 lbs per cu ft.

We have red injector 0, BLFC = 0.125, and DLFC = 4gpm

I am going to set the system to backwash and unplug unit, then trickle fill the tank, then once water is coming out of drain line, will plug unit back in, set to rapid rinse and unplug, then open inlet 100% for 15 minutes, and then start a regeneration, and open the outlet to start up the system.

I do not know what settings I should use, can anyone please help?
Thank you!
John

 

[Reach4]

We have red injector 0, BLFC = 0.125, and DLFC = 4gpm

I don't know how to program the XTR2. I will comment that the red #0 injector will call for a brine draw of about 154 minutes, but probably 120 minutes would be enough. Definitely 60, or even 90 minutes, would be inadequate. A blue #2 would have been a better choice. The red will work fine as long as you set the brine draw long enough. The softener is in bypass during the brine draw time.

If you tell us what the settings are now, we might be able to add some pointers or comments.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[uniTex]

I don't know how to program the XTR2. I will comment that the red #0 injector will call for a brine draw of about 154 minutes, but probably 120 minutes would be enough. Definitely 60, or even 90 minutes, would be inadequate. A blue #2 would have been a better choice. The red will work fine as long as you set the brine draw long enough. The softener is in bypass during the brine draw time.

If you tell us what the settings are now, we might be able to add some pointers or comments.

It’s the red injector, I just looked at this site and it says it’s for 12-13” tanks, and blue is for 18”?
https://www.isopurewater.com/Fleck-...MIgo-i_sCI5gIVxcDACh3FCwYaEAQYASABEgJaqvD_BwE

there isn’t any settings yet, the plumber just plumbed it and supplied the equipment. He wasn’t familiar with the digital version so was leaving the settings to me. I can buy the blue injector online if it would help.

 

[Reach4]

It’s the red injector, I just looked at this site and it says it’s for 12-13” tanks, and blue is for 18”?
https://www.isopurewater.com/Fleck-...MIgo-i_sCI5gIVxcDACh3FCwYaEAQYASABEgJaqvD_BwE

Maybe I am wrong. You check please. Look at page 34 of the service manual for the softener. Look at how fast the brine gets drawn with a red injector. Is that about 0.25 gpm? Figure 8.33 gallons of water were injected with your 10 lb/cuft dosing, and that expanded to about 9.58 gallons of brine. How much time to draw the brine? Then multiply that by 4, or at least 3, and what should the BD (brine draw) be?

I think the usual thing is to ignore the brine expansion, but to use a 4x factor. That works very nicely and results in a simpler calculation.

Often an injector is selected to give about a 60 minute BD time, but 90 minutes is good too and has some efficiency advantage.

Also, although the DLFC value is selected based on tank diameter, the injector is not.

 

[uniTex]

Maybe I am wrong. You check please. Look at page 34 of the service manual for the softener. Look at how fast the brine gets drawn with a red injector. Is that about 0.25 gpm? Figure 8.33 gallons of water were injected with your 10 lb/cuft dosing, and that expanded to about 9.58 gallons of brine. How much time to draw the brine? Then multiply that by 4, or at least 3, and what should the BD (brine draw) be?

I think the usual thing is to ignore the brine expansion, but to use a 4x factor. That works very nicely and results in a simpler calculation.

Often an injector is selected to give about a 60 minute BD time, but 90 minutes is good too and has some efficiency advantage.

ok thank you! I will go do this now and report back to you asap. Here is a photo of what appears to be salt equation on unit.


https://ibb.co/yQKVzMg

and https://ibb.co/g6PcqgC injector

 

[Reach4]

ok thank you! I will go do this now and report back to you asap.

Try not to describe the programming with screen shots, but rather with a method that would be easy to describe in concise canonical text. For example, for a time, instead of a picture of a clock, it would be more useful to have a "Time: 1:33 pm". That makes it easier for somebody to describe changing to time 2:00 pm rather than editing an image of a screen.

Let me illustrate: if you had an SXT controller, I would have suggested what I put below as a hypothetical. However the XTR2 has a different method of programming the softener, and I wonder if there could be a method of prescribing that that is more text and numbers based.

An unimportant question: Do you use a step stool to program this thing?
=============================================
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 10.05 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.125 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 11 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day ; 300 ; 60 gal per person prediction (auto-tunes)
Est days/regen ; 18.79 ; presuming days each use estimated


Hypothetical Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 67.6 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 12 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 135 ; Brine draw minutes 10 lb/cuft salt, #0 injector
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 67 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?

 

[uniTex]

I read page 34 and page 18, I see it does 0.25gpm on brine draw with injector #0 (red), and using 8lbs salt per cu ft, 6.66gallons x 4 = 26.64 divided by 0.25gpm = approximately 106minutes, which lines up with previous calculation guidance, thank you!

The buttons on the front of the unit are at eye level (I'm 5'11"), so no stool needed thankfully.

Thank you for the above template! Looking at the XTR2 service manual, page 18, I see I can do the below:

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 8.0 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.125 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 11 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day ; 440 ; 60 gal per person excluding wife, wife uses estimated 200 gal.
Est days/regen ; 12.39 ; presuming days each use estimated


Fleck 5812XTR2 Settings:
Language = English
Units = US
Hardness Units = Grains per gallon
Valve = 5810
Media Volume = 2.5, cu ft
Salt Dosage = 8, lbs/cu ft
BLFC size = 0.125, gpm
Regen Type = Softener Delayed
Capacity = 60000, grains
Hardness = 11, grains per gallon
Reserve = Weekly Reserve
Day Override = 30, days
Regen Time = 2:00, AM
Volume Override = N/A
Regeneration = Downflow 2x Backwash
Aux 1/Aux2 = N/A
Meter Type = 1.25", Turbine
Remote Regen = N/A

I do not see the below information in the XTR2 service manual, I am thinking this may get automatically calculated from the above information.
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 135 ; Brine draw minutes 10 lb/cuft salt, #0 injector
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 67 ; Brine fill minutes

 

[Reach4]

I don't see a way for the softener controller to know how long to make the BD time. It may be that it uses a fixed time, in which case, you should have a different injector. Alternatively, there may be a setting that you have not found yet.

For other things, I could see fixed defaults being reasonable, but not the BD using a #0 injector.

The symptom of not having a long enough brine draw cycle would be some salt left in the tank after regen. If you monitor the salt level in the drain line during the BD cycle (by taste or TDS meter), there will be a dramatic increase in the saltiness when the salt hits the drain. The TDS should drop down to fairly near the TDS of your water by the end of be BD cycle.

 

[uniTex]

I don't see a way for the softener controller to know how long to make the BD time. It may be that it uses a fixed time, in which case, you should have a different injector. Alternatively, there may be a setting that you have not found yet.

For other things, I could see fixed defaults being reasonable, but not the BD using a #0 injector.

Yes I am finding on some other threads, the XTR2 does a calculation for refill time, using the capacity setting, salt dosage, and BLFC size.

I will look at the menu system and see if there is a place to see the resulting minutes for each regeneration step.

 

[uniTex]

.

 

[uniTex]

I don't see a way for the softener controller to know how long to make the BD time. It may be that it uses a fixed time, in which case, you should have a different injector. Alternatively, there may be a setting that you have not found yet.

For other things, I could see fixed defaults being reasonable, but not the BD using a #0 injector.

The symptom of not having a long enough brine draw cycle would be some salt left in the tank after regen. If you monitor the salt level in the drain line during the BD cycle (by taste or TDS meter), there will be a dramatic increase in the saltiness when the salt hits the drain. The TDS should drop down to fairly near the TDS of your water by the end of be BD cycle.

Ok I see the 4 Regen times. Can you please confirm this looks good? This is for 8lb/cu ft., 60k capacity with 2.5cu ft resin, .125gpm BLFC.

Backwash: 6min
Draw: 107min
RapidRinse: 10min
Tank refill: 54min

Thank you,
John

 

[Reach4]

Looks good, but 90 or 100 is probably enough for BD. If you want to tune this, when the brine hits the drain line, maybe 10 or 15 minutes into the BD cycle, there would be a dramatic increase in the TDS of the drain water. At the end of the BD, the TDS should be nearly down to what the TDS is for the softened water (110%??).

If you do go to the trouble of getting a cheap TDS meter, you might as well write down your readings and times, and post the results. No need to do that test however.

The symptom of BD being too short is residual salt in the water after a regen.

 

[uniTex]

I started up the unit this afternoon, the only concern I currently have is the amount of water in the brine tank after the 4th step of regeneration, the 54minutes of tank refill. I had an empty 18x40 brine tank that I added 7 gallons of water with 4 tablespoons of bleach and did two regenerations to clean out the system as part of start up process before adding salt. After 100minutes of brine draw, the brine tank was almost empty, perhaps a gallon of water was at bottom of brine tank.
At the end of the second regeneration, I saw water in the brine tank as expected from the tank refill. I added 3 bags, or 120 pounds of salt, and the salt still was submersed by the amount of water, by about 2 inches. It seems I should have purchased a 4th or 5th bag, or I have too much water in my brine tank from the tank refill setting of 54 minutes. 54minutes at .125gpm is 6.75 gallons, but it seems like there is more than that in the brine tank, maybe 50% more?
What is your thoughts?

Thank you,
John

 

[Bannerman]

54minutes at .125gpm is 6.75 gallons, but it seems like there is more than that in the brine tank, maybe 50% more?

BLFC restrictor buttons are commonly 0.125, 0.25, 0.5 and 1 gpm.

You can easily confirm the fill flow rate by disconnecting the brine line at the top of the brine tank, direct the open hose into a bucket or jug, then advance the controller to Brine Fill to measure the amount of flow in 60 seconds. If the installed BLFC restrictor is actually 0.25 gpm, that will be the amount of water in the jug after 60 seconds.

 

[Reach4]

At the end of the second regeneration, I saw water in the brine tank as expected from the tank refill. I added 3 bags, or 120 pounds of salt, and the salt still was submersed by the amount of water, by about 2 inches. It seems I should have purchased a 4th or 5th bag, or I have too much water in my brine tank from the tank refill setting of 54 minutes. 54minutes at .125gpm is 6.75 gallons, but it seems like there is more than that in the brine tank, maybe 50% more?
What is your thoughts?

The button on a 0.125 BLFC will have "123" molded onto it.

How big is your brine tank cross section, and what shape?

When you don't have enough salt to cover the water, and want to avoid stratification, you can tilt the salt level. However I understand that you are concerned that too many gallons are being put into the tank.

 

[uniTex]

I pulled the brine line off the softener, it says 123 on the button. the brine tank is 18x40 circle, with a salt grid plate on the bottom. I added 3 more bags (120 pounds) of salt and it is now above the water. There is now 5.5 bags, or 220 pounds of salt in the brine tank, as 0.5 bag was used up in last nights manual regeneration.

 

[Reach4]

I pulled the brine line off the softener, it says 123 on the button. the brine tank is 18x40 circle, with a salt grid plate on the bottom. I added 3 more bags (120 pounds) of salt and it is now above the water. There is now 5.5 bags, or 220 pounds of salt in the brine tank, as 0.5 bag was used up in last nights manual regeneration.

With 6.75 gallons fill, I would expect the water level to rise around 15 inches in an 18 inch ID tank that is full of salt.
This presumes that the water sucks down to a level at or above the top of the salt grid, and you are measuring from that level. If the water sucks lower than that, then less than 15.

 

[uniTex]

I have a follow up question - all is going well with the settings, but I decided when there was 700 gallons remaining before next regen, to test again with Hach5b, and instead of turning blue with 1 drop which is how it is after regeneration and during prior tests, it took 2 drops to turn blue.

Last night a regeneration occurred and testing this morning its back to 1 drop turning blue. Would either of the below two changes likely resolve so it says 1 drop blue throughout the entire time? I tested outside water and it is 9gpg, but I'll continue to use 11gpg in the softener settings.

Original: 60000 capacity, 8 lbs salt with 2.5cuft softener, 100 minutes Brine Draw. 60000 / 20lbs salt = 3000 grains per lb

1) Lower capacity from 60,000 to 52,000, essentially lowering capacity 10% between regen, = 52000 capacity / 20lbs salt = 2600 grains per lb

2) Increase salt dosage from 8lb/ft, to 10lb/ft, and raise capacity to 67,500, and increase Brine Draw to 135 minutes, and increase Tank Refill to 67 minutes, = 67500 / 25lbs salt = 2700 grains per lb

#2 seems to be the most efficient change to have 1 drop blue continuously?

Thank you,
John

 

[Reach4]

With an XTR2, you do not program the refill minutes directly. You set the salt dosage in lbs/cuft/

If BD= 100 minutes is good (which would match the brine being sucked out in about 25 minutes or so), the new BD would be about 100/8/10=125 minutes for #2. I don't find the setting in the manual where you set the BD for the XTR2.

Anyway, I would lean toward the #1 approach for better salt efficiency. Actually maybe a variation of #1 is #3: increase the hardness setting to maybe 13.

 

[Bannerman]

I suspect too much capacity had been consumed initially, mostly due to the extreme amount of water consumed for the daily bath routine you described.

With Reserve set to 'Weekly', the system will build an algorithm over 6 weeks, to identify usage for each day of the week. Now that there is more than 6 weeks history recorded, the algorithm will have been completed so the system will more accurately predict the quantity of water consumed each day to anticipate the amount of reserve capacity needed for each day of the week. As there was insufficient usage history initially, the system could not predict the quantity of water to be used each day, and therefore not yet recognize an appropriate reserve amount for each day.

If water usage on the final day preceeding each regeneration consumed not only the remaining capacity but also the reserve allowance, then more than 60K grains of capacity will have been consumed, but the programmed settings only provide for 60K grains to be regenerated, resulting in a capacity deficit.

Now that the usage algorithm has been completed, the system should be more accurate predicting usage and the reserve allowance needed each day to reduce the likelihood that consumption will exceed capacity. I anticipate your current settings will remain appropriate but an additional manual regeneration will be needed to restore any excess capacity that was depleted initially.