FLECK 5600SE Downflow Performance is poor. Was good.

[DAK]

First off want to tell you how good it was to find your forum! Perplexing issues with my water softener are getting the better of me.

2008 I installed a 32K grain water softener using a Fleck 5600 SE Downflow V2.0 head.

The water I get from the city has been between 8 and 4 grains per gallon calcium.

Two people in the house.

When I first set the unit up I was going 2700 gallons before regeneration and never any issues. I would spot check with test sticks and never had any indication that the resin had maxed out.

In 2012 we did a complete renovation. Circumstances resulted in the softener sitting for almost two years. I did a regeneration prior to removing the unit from service.

Once back in the house I hooked unit up and all was OK at the start but very soon I started seeing a decline in the volume of water that was being softened after regeneration. I changed out the resin to see if that would help. So far it has shown an improvement BUT I am not back to where I was. Maybe 1400 gallon before signs of hardness.

The regeneration cycle numbers are: #1-10, #2-60, #3-10, #4-12, #5-OFF. I have it set for 2200 gals and am not using a regeneration override.

The unit worked flawlessly for 4 years before being shut down. It does not work like it used to and I am at a loss as to why.

If you have any suggestions I would very much appreciate it. Perhaps some things I can look for?

Thanks in advance.

David

 

[ditttohead]

For starters arbitrary descriptions of it doesn't perform as well as it used too do not really give us enough information to be of much help. I would highly suggest that you get a Hach 5B test kit so that you can give some solid information. This is a high quality hardness test kit that is simple to use and highly accurate. It is considered the industry standard softness test kit and most companies that service systems use this test kit almost exclusively. We need to know your actual hardness from the municipality. We also need to know what BLFC you have on your system. It is a small black, blue, or red sticker on the valve near where the brine line enters the valve.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DAK]

I tested the water just now using a API recognized test procedure using versenate indicator and a buffering agent and then titrating to a blue end point with standard versenate. The total hardness in mg/L was 100 which I believe converts to 5.8 grains per gallon.
The BLFC sticker is black and states .5 GPM and 1.5 POUNDS SALT/MIN.

Regards,

David

 

[DAK]

I pulled the invoice for the water softener. The tank is 9" x 48" and the bypass valve is 3/4".

Regards,

David

 

[DAK]

The labels on the unit are attached for your information.

Thanks again for the assistance.

David

 

[Bannerman]

The regeneration cycle numbers are: #1-10, #2-60, #3-10, #4-12, #5-OFF. I have it set for 2200 gals and am not using a regeneration override.

The 5600SE Manual shows there are two cycle cams available for that valve, a single backwash version (Black) using 4 regeneration stages, and a double BW version (Blue) using 5 regeneration stages.

As I anticipate stage #5 might be programmed as OFF when the single backwash cam is installed, then stage #4 should relate to the Brine Fill setting whereas stage #5 will relate to Brine Fill when the double backwash cam is installed.

Assuming you have a single backwash version, since stage #4 is set to 12 minutes, then 12 minutes X 0.5 BLFC = 6 gallons of water should be entering the brine tank to dissolve 18 lbs of salt. Is 6 gallons of water actually entering the brine tank during Brine Fill? Is almost all of the brine being drawn out during the Brine stage (#2) of the regen cycle?

I suspect an issue with either brine fill or brine draw. Have you removed the injector screen, injector nozzle and throat to ensure there are no obstructions?

Once the regenerated capacity issue has been corrected, the capacity and salt setting can be reprogrammed for increased efficiency.

 

[DAK]

Yes the unit is a single back wash. The cam is black.

I have not gone into the unit to date for lack of a better understanding of what to look for. Your diagnosis makes sense.

Is it difficult removing the injector screen, injector nozzle and throat? Should I do a regeneration and measure the water volumes?

Regards,

David

 

[Bannerman]

Servicing the injector filter, nozzle and throat is an easy task.

Here is a link to the Service Manual. http://www.andersonpumphouse.com/mrws/filedriver/5600SE-Downflow_Service_Manual.pdf

The injector parts are under the cover (#26) shown at the bottom of page #16. You can also remove the BLFC button (#38) to ensure a clear path for water flow. The button is the device which controls the brine fill rate to 0.5 gpm.

Also, at least ensure the brine valve plunger is moving freely by pushing the stem down (#27) as it should move back upwards by spring action. Alternately, disassemble and inspect the brine valve internals. The stem, O rings, etc, should be lubricated with food grade silicone lubricant (plumbers grease).

 

[DAK]

Thanks Bannerman. I will attack this today.

Regards,

David

 

[Reach4]

After you get this working again, you can check for a more economical setting. If the interpretations are right, you would be using 18 pounds of salt to regenerate 1 cuft of resin.

If you are going through salt slower than that, that could point to what is happening.

 

[DAK]

The amount of salt I am using does seem to be more then usual but I have been trying to figure this out for a while and so extra regenerations have been done.
What is the rule of thumb for lbs salt to regenerate 1 cubic foot of resin? I have read that 15 - 16 pounds is about right!?

Thanks again for your assist. As it is my day has not allowed me to attack unit. Hopefully tomorrow.

David

 

[Reach4]

Start with the table at the bottom of http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm

With 15 pounds of salt, you can regenerate about 30000 grains of hardness. With 6 pounds, you can regen about 20000. Obviously you would have to regen more frequently, but the trade-off is often considered worthwhile.

You may want to consider a professional water treatment person to do this if your time is limited. It will be much faster for things to be working again. On the other hand, you may get a saleman instead of a service tech. The solution to the salesman is nearly always a new, expensive system. Now maybe it is time for a new system. But most likely it should be repairable. You can do it, but you would probably take a whole lot longer. A service tech will charge to come out. A salesman will usually come out free.

You may find http://www.softenerparts.com/kb_results.asp?ID=172 of use, despite them not liking that valve.

 

[DAK]

I am OK with doing this on my own. In the work I do base exchange is used daily. Everything we have talked about makes sense. All the manuals are in hand. The FLECK unit was bullet proof. I see no issues doing the tear down to confirm there is no blockage and if need be changing out parts is pretty straight forward.
A little preplanning goes a long way!
The information provided by you, Bannerman and dittohead has cleared up the majority of my questions.

As it is I do have a tech if needed. I would just prefer to do this my self. I installed the unit.

Thanks again.

David

 

[DAK]

This morning I relieved the pressure on the softener and checked the injector screen, injector nozzle and throat to ensure that they were clean. As it turned out the injector screen had a lot of black crud in it. Everything else was clear. I applied a light film of silicone grease on to all rubber parts and put it back together. As you said, pretty easy.

I have initiated another regeneration to see if cleaning the plugged screen will improve the brining of the resin (did I say that right?).

If all is looking to be good after this regeneration I will adjust the settings using what Reach4 suggested to reduce the salt usage per region.

Think I covered it all.

Thanks

David

Any comments or recommendations always appreciated.

 

[DAK]

The 5600SE Manual shows there are two cycle cams available for that valve, a single backwash version (Black) using 4 regeneration stages, and a double BW version (Blue) using 5 regeneration stages.

As I anticipate stage #5 might be programmed as OFF when the single backwash cam is installed, then stage #4 should relate to the Brine Fill setting whereas stage #5 will relate to Brine Fill when the double backwash cam is installed.

Assuming you have a single backwash version, since stage #4 is set to 12 minutes, then 12 minutes X 0.5 BLFC = 6 gallons of water should be entering the brine tank to dissolve 18 lbs of salt. Is 6 gallons of water actually entering the brine tank during Brine Fill? Is almost all of the brine being drawn out during the Brine stage (#2) of the regen cycle?

I suspect an issue with either brine fill or brine draw. Have you removed the injector screen, injector nozzle and throat to ensure there are no obstructions?

Once the regenerated capacity issue has been corrected, the capacity and salt setting can be reprogrammed for increased efficiency.

Bannerman

I never answered your questions...

In Stage #2 the brine tank empties.
In Stage #4 the brine tank after filling measures 17" high (brine level) by 13" x 15" for width(tapered sides). This is roughly 14 gallons. I see salt top about one third of the way down so I am going to say that 6 gallons of brine is in the tank..

Thanks

David

 

[Bannerman]

Good to hear. As you didn't check before you cleaned the injector screen, nozzle and throat, I'm not sure if this is an improvement. Although not scientific, is there now a noticeable improvement with the water's softness?

As you said:

... I will adjust the settings using what Reach4 suggested to reduce the salt usage per region.

I'm not certain if you understood.

Although your softener contains 1 cuft of resin which has a maximum softening capacity of 32K grains when the resin is first new, that capacity does not need to be depleted before regeneration occurs. Similar to your vehicle, you don't need to wait until the fuel tank is empty before refueling.
Salt efficiency can be drastically improved by using only a portion of the total capacity and then regenerating with a much smaller amount of salt.

As some total capacity will be reduced over time due to resin bead fracturing and other reasons, the maximum capacity of 1 cuft of standard resin is therefore usually estimated to be 30K.

Your current 18 lb salt setting to restore 32K result in a maximum salt efficiency of 32K / 18 = 1,778 grains per pound of salt. This is very poor salt efficiency.

30K of capacity can be regenerated with 15 lbs of salt thereby yielding 2,000 grains/lb max.

27K of capacity can be restored with 10 lbs = 2,700 grains/lb
24K capacity restored with 8 lbs = 3.000 grains/lb
20K capacity restored with 6 lbs = 3,333 grains/lb

As it is preferable to regenerate not more often than 1X/week, calculate the capacity your family uses in 1 week to determine which capacity satisfies or slightly exceeds your weekly softening needs thereby indicating which salt setting to use. A 6 or 8 lb setting will provide good salt efficiency as well as good quality soft water. It is generally advised to not use less than a 6 lb salt setting. As your softener utilizes a meter to keep track of water usage, if your water use is below your calculated average, then regeneration will be extended beyond 1 week. If your water use is occasionally higher than usual, then regeneration will occur sooner than 1 week.

Once the salt setting is decided upon, then the brine fill setting and the programmed capacity would be appropriately reduced to correspond.

As you state a hardness range, you will not know when say a 4 grain hardness increases to a higher amount so the hardness amount programmed, should be the highest level expected.

The hardness level in a municipal supply can vary as water is often obtain from multiple wells with differing hardness levels. If a well is shut down for maintenance or reduced seasonal need, then other wells will be feeding more water into the system which can change the hardness levels throughout the distribution system.

 

[DAK]

My treated water does not show any hardness so now I am going to monitor it daily to see how long it takes for hardness to show up.

As my salt use is high for the 1 cubic foot based on my current salt setting of 18 pounds I am going to presume that it should have regenerated the 1 cubic foot of resin!? Am I correct in that thinking? The resin was replaced a month ago (1 cubic foot).

If I have 30K grains capacity then I theoretically should be able to go 34 days before the resin will not take any more hardness(calcium)
((30,000 GRAINS /(5.8 GPG x 150 GPD))= 34 DAYS).

Prior to cleaning the screen of debris I was only treating about 1400 gallons before I saw hardness in the water which I think could be explained because the unit was not able to move enough brine to the resin during regeneration!? Now that the lines are clear I am hoping to see an improvement in the number of days till hardness shows.
Is my thinking sound?

Should I drop salt setting so I am treating with 8 lbs to get 24K capacity.

Thanks

David

 

[Bannerman]

As my salt use is high for the 1 cubic foot based on my current salt setting of 18 pounds I am going to presume that it should have regenerated the 1 cubic foot of resin!? Am I correct in that thinking?

Yes, all of the potential softening capacity in 1 cuft of resin will have been restored with the 18 lb dose. It is generally recommended to regenerate to at least 15 lbs/cuft initially following the softener running-out of salt and all capacity having been exhausted, regardless of whatever lower amount of capacity is programmed. By using the 18 lb salt dose, that would ensure any potential remaining capacity above 30K is also restored.

... which I think could be explained because the unit was not able to move enough brine to the resin during regeneration!?

While that would be a fair assumption, since brine draw was not observed and verified prior to cleaning the screen, we won't know if that was actually the case. As brine refill will normally occur regardless of the amount of brine remaining, adding more water will usually result in unusually high brine tank fluid height, unless the additional incoming flow was prevented by the brine tank safety float and valve.

Although your 34 day total capacity calculation is correct, since your resin is so new and will have some additional capacity beyond 30K, it is likely it will take a few additional days before all capacity will again be exhausted.

It would serve no purpose to determine the number of days to run-out but better to proceed as you mention, program for less capacity with a lower salt setting. A 1 cuft softener is considered to support a constant flow rate of 9 gpm before hardness will break through but as capacity continues to be depleted towards 0 remaining, the flow rate supported will also decrease.

For 24K capacity, with your 0.5 BLFC refill rate, the brine fill time would then be 5.34 minutes for an 8 lb setting, but I doubt you can program for fractions of minutes. 24K of capacity would result in a regeneration frequency of approx 27 days using your stated consumption rate of 870 grains/day. Alternately, 20K capacity using a 6 lb setting (4 minute Brine Fill), will result in regeneration every 22-23 days.

 

[DAK]

Thank you for the response with your thoughts.

1. I will set up for a 20K (6 lb) setting.
2. Does every thing else stay the same? Is 60 minutes OK for the Brine/Slow Rinse? Still trying to get a handle on that setting. If my brine concentration available is less now, could I not also reduce the time allowed for brine in #2?

Thanks again to all who have assisted. I have learned a lot.

David

 

[Bannerman]

If my brine concentration available is less now, could I not also reduce the time allowed for brine in #2?

Brine Draw should be completed within 1/4 of the programmed time. With your 60 minute setting, brine should be all drawn from the brine tank in 15 minutes. The remaining 45 minutes is utilized to slowly push brine through the resin and to rinse it out from the resin tank to drain.

The rinse and brine draw flow rate is set by the injector. As an 8", 9" or 10" diameter tank will normally utilize a #1 White injector (venturi), the rinse rate will be 0.45 gpm causing suction to draw brine at 0.38 gpm until the brine tank air-check valve closes whereby only rinse flow continues. At those flow rates, it takes some time for the brine volume to flow through the resin tank but the slow rate results in higher transfer efficiency than a faster rate.

The #1 setting is Backwash (reverse flow) to flush-out debris from the resin and to loosen and expand the spaces between the resin beads to ensure the beads will have more contact with the brine. Ten minutes is usual in most circumstances.

The #3 setting is Fast Rinse to repack the resin to ensure service flow water will flow through the resin bed as opposed to flowing through loose spaces between the beads. 10 minutes is usually appropriate. Both Backwash and Fast Rinse rates are controlled by the DLFC (drain line flow control) button which 2 gpm is appropriate for your 9" tank.