Fleck 5000 sxt pro flow questions

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CRB

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Folks,

I understand ion exchange chemistry but I'm very new to water softeners. I have purchased and installed a Fleck 5000 sxt. I preferred it to the more popular 5600 due to the full 1" porting that should give lower pressure drop on my supply to the house. I have 32,000 gr set up as recommended in the manual and my water output has tested to less than 1 gr/gal so it looks to be working OK. My concern is there seems to be very little water in the brine tank. It's only a few inches above the grid. Is this enough? When I ran it through a regen cycle the water in the brine tank is gone in about 14 min but the brine cycle appears to be 60 min. Can somebody please tell me how the regen cycle works and what my settings should be for the programmable parameters. The instructions I received were very vague. Brine Fill was set for 12 and Capacity was set at 24 even though the unit I purchased (and sticker on the unit) was 32000.

All help to this ultra-newbie to water softening person is very much appreciated.

Chris
 

Reach4

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The brine is sucked in during the brine/slow rinse cycle. It is the same cycle from the point of view of the controller, but the brine gets sucked up until the checkvalve in the tank closes off the path. The rest of the time in the cycle is called the slow rinse, which rinses the salt off of the resin. Having the combined cycle be about 4 times as long as the time for the brine to be sucked up is good and what you usually design for.

You have 1 cuft of resin. For salt efficiency, you are probably set to provide 8 pounds of salt during each regen. To get about 32000 grains instead of 24000, you would need to provide 16 pounds of salt each regen instead of 8. Why label it as "32000"? It is a convention that has some basis in that the resin could do that if you used a lot more salt.

To use 8 pounds of salt, you would want 8/3=2.67 gallons of water.With brine fill (BF) at 12, that would presume a brine fill rate of 0.222 gallons per minute. It is probably a 0.25 BLFC (brine line flow control), so your brine fill probably gives 3 gallons of water resulting in your using 9 pounds of salt. So you could probably up that C number a bit. An alternative would be to drop to 6 lb/cuft by switching to BF=8. Then change C to 20.0 from 24.0

If your brine tank is 19 inches square, that would be 361 sq in. There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon. So 3 gallons of water would raise the depth 1.91 inches if there was no salt. With salt, the level would rise more. I don't know what the ratio would be, but I have guessed that maybe salt pellets would occupy 50% of the shared space. That may be off, but I have not seen anybody propose a better number.

Did the 5000 controller seem to give any advantage vs the 7000?

Are you on a well? If so, what is your iron and manganese? What is your hardness?

Can somebody please tell me how the regen cycle works and what my settings should be for the programmable parameters.
I could take a stab at it. What I would want from you first is a list in order of the parameters that come up when you cycle through your current settings, along with the current values. I am not a pro.
 
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CRB

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The brine is sucked in during the brine/slow rinse cycle. It is the same cycle from the point of view of the controller, but the brine gets sucked up until the checkvalve in the tank closes off the path. The rest of the time in the cycle is called the slow rinse, which rinses the salt off of the resin. Having the combined cycle be about 4 times as long as the time for the brine to be sucked up is good and what you usually design for.

You have 1 cuft of resin. For salt efficiency, you are probably set to provide 8 pounds of salt during each regen. To get about 32000 grains instead of 24000, you would need to provide 16 pounds of salt each regen instead of 8. Why label it as "32000"? It is a convention that has some basis in that the resin could do that if you used a lot more salt.

To use 8 pounds of salt, you would want 8/3=2.67 gallons of water.With brine fill (BF) at 12, that would presume a brine fill rate of 0.222 gallons per minute. It is probably a 0.25 BLFC (brine line flow control), so your brine fill probably gives 3 gallons of water resulting in your using 9 pounds of salt. So you could probably up that C number a bit. An alternative would be to drop to 6 lb/cuft by switching to BF=8. Then change C to 20.0 from 24.0

If your brine tank is 19 inches square, that would be 361 sq in. There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon. So 3 gallons of water would raise the depth 1.91 inches if there was no salt. With salt, the level would rise more. I don't know what the ratio would be, but I have guessed that maybe salt pellets would occupy 50% of the shared space. That may be off, but I have not seen anybody propose a better number.

Did the 5000 controller seem to give any advantage vs the 7000?

Are you on a well? If so, what is your iron and manganese? What is your hardness?


I could take a stab at it. What I would want from you first is a list in order of the parameters that come up when you cycle through your current settings, along with the current values. I am not a pro.


Reach, you may not be a pro but you know waaaay more than I do. Thanks so much for the informative explanation of the brine rinse in the regen cycle. Sounds like my unit is working about right. I'm starting to really understand thanks to you. Sorry for the additional questions but can you tell me how you came up with 3 to divide into 8? Is that the lbs of salt that dissolves in one gal of water before it gets saturated?

I guess I had assumed the 32,000 was the hardness capacity of the resin. It looked to me on several sites that 1 cu ft of standard resin equated to 32000 grains. 24,000 usually has .75 cu ft, 40,000 has 1.25 cu ft etc. Also you answered a question I didn't even ask BLFC stands for Brine Line Flow Control!! I wondered about that... saw it on several pages that came up with my Googling. From your response I take it that I can also get more capacity by regenerating with more salt even with no additional resin. Is that correct?

The Fleck 7000 seems to have even larger port size of 1 1/4" but I just used a few of the sites sizing system and came up with the 5000 as a little better than the 5600 so I went with it. My supply line is 1" so I figured that was the most I needed... not sure if that logic stands up to scrutiny.

For my sizing I estimated hardness to be 20 gr/gal based on some test results reported in my area and from what softener sales people had told my neighbors. Turns out all those numbers were way high. I tested with a Hach titration test kit and double checked with test strips. It runs around 6-8 gr/gal. max. I confirmed this is right in line with the city water supply operators. Since it's only me and my wife most of the time I'm probably way over-sized. But we do have a large house with family and kids that sometimes swell the population to 6-8. So I guess it's good to have the capacity. After regeneration my Hach test doesn't turn pink at all. It's blue from the start and I believe that means I have less than 1 gr/gal. Not bad! I haven't had the unit running long enough to see if that will change as I approach regen time.

On the parameters I was asking for I think the main one I needed is the meter type... I found out it's a .75" turbine from another post. Is that what you show for this unit?

Thanks again for the great reply. I just don't like it when I have equipment that I don't understand what's going on and how it operates.

Best regards,

Chris
 

Reach4

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http://waterpurification.pentair.co...n/proflosxt-downflow-service-manual-42772.pdf is the service manual.

On the parameters I was asking for I think the main one I needed is the meter type... I found out it's a .75" turbine from another post. Is that what you show for this unit?
I just now downloaded the manual. I was a bit surprised that it was a 3/4 inch turbine rather than something larger. I would expect that this value was set up correctly already. So did the FM setting show t0.7 ??? If so, I expect that is correct.

Sorry for the additional questions but can you tell me how you came up with 3 to divide into 8? Is that the lbs of salt that dissolves in one gal of water before it gets saturated?
Yes, that is it.

You might want to skim through http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and maybe continue with the link on the bottom. It gets into more detail on some topics than you need at this point, but pay attention to the tables in particular.
From your response I take it that I can also get more capacity by regenerating with more salt even with no additional resin. Is that correct?
Yes, but you would use more salt for a given amount of capacity. If you were absolutely trying to keep your water bill down, that might make sense. You would be adding more salt to the water by doing so.
 
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Reach,

Your answers and the links you provided are exactly what I needed. This site is very fortunate to have members like you.

Thank you so much!

Chris
 

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Reach,

I've read and re-read the articles at the links you provided and find them extremely interesting and I'm starting to understand all of your comments and recommendations. So I can improve my salt efficiency by taking advantage of what is really excess capacity for my situation with only my wife and me most ot the time since I have 1 cu ft of resin. Am I getting this right? One other question is the .25 BLFC an orifice in the brine line that restricts flow to .25 gal/min? If so does it restrict flow to the same rate in both directions?

Chris
 

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One other question is the .25 BLFC an orifice in the brine line that restricts flow to .25 gal/min? If so does it restrict flow to the same rate in both directions?

It is a special thing that distorts in some way to keep the flow out fairly constant over a range of pressure differences.

I expect that its restricting effect is less when water is being pulled from the tank, and the pull rate would be affected more by the "injector". So I am not clear on how that all works. I think the BLFC is part #37 on page 15 of the manual. Page 23 shows some water routing diagrams, and page 24 shows some flow graphs.
 

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Reach,

That's great info again. I thought it was just an orifice so I was having trouble figuring out how it would maintain flow since they normally require 3:1 pressure drop to maintain constant flow. I could see how that would work in Brine Fill mode with supply pressure but in vacuum mode it would be hard to figure out. The routing flow routing diagrams are also helping a lot. You've been a tremendous help thanks so much!

Chris
 

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The BLFC on softeners is a directional design. They only restrict water flow during refill. During draw, they move slightly allowing water to flow freely around them.
 

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The BLFC on softeners is a directional design. They only restrict water flow during refill. During draw, they move slightly allowing water to flow freely around them.


Many thanks Dittohead, I'm trying to learn how these things work as they're pretty interesting to me. So I take it the venturi provides the motive force to suck the brine out of the tank and supply water is mixed with the brine and exhausted until the total Brine Draw/Slow Rinse cycle ends (60 min on my unit). Seems like that would dilute the brine a lot. Or is there something I'm missing?

Chris
 

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Correct, it is diluted by design. Saturated brine tends to not work as well as a diluter brine solution. Same thing goes for many household chemical. Bleach is only 5% and is usually diluter to <1%. Acid and alkaline cleaners are also heavily diluted to achieve their best function. Just like gas cant be used in an engine with air dilution... Straight brine works and some systems use it, but these systems have their own unique problems. For more details you can read the specs on the resin manufacturers websites, but even these are really only general guidelines.
 

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To clarify, 1 cuft of regular resin does have a maximum capacity of 32,000 grains initially from the factory. Once in use, some capacity will be lost as some of the resin beads will become fractured over time and in shipping so those broken pieces will be flushed to drain during regeneration. In addition, some capacity will be utilized during regeneration as the the slow and fast rinse cycles are most often performed using hard water. In anticipation of those losses, most programming is based on 30K grains total capacity per 1 cuft of resin.

As regeneration of a higher percentage of total capacity increases, salt efficiency decreases. For example, to regenerate all 30K grains capacity in 1 cuft of resin, 15 lbs of salt is required, yielding only 2000 grains per lb. With the same 1 cuft resin, only 8 lbs of salt is needed to regenerate 24K capacity (3K grains/lb) while 6 lbs of salt will regenerate 20K of capacity (3,333 grains/lb). A larger 1.5 cuft softener will only need 9 lbs of salt to regenerate 30K of usable capacity (3,333 grains/lb).

It is usually recommended to not reduce below 6 lbs per cuft as water quality may suffer. Also, as the amount of water required to regenerate remains fairly consistent regardless of salt setting, the more frequently regeneration occurs, means more water will be used to regenerate each year. A 6 or 8 lb salt setting is a good compromise between salt efficiency and regeneration frequency.

It is preferred when choosing which size softener to buy, to obtain one large enough so that regeneration will not need to occur more often than weekly using an efficient salt setting, while satisfying the soft water requirements for the household.
 
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Correct, it is diluted by design. Saturated brine tends to not work as well as a diluter brine solution. Same thing goes for many household chemical. Bleach is only 5% and is usually diluter to <1%. Acid and alkaline cleaners are also heavily diluted to achieve their best function. Just like gas cant be used in an engine with air dilution... Straight brine works and some systems use it, but these systems have their own unique problems. For more details you can read the specs on the resin manufacturers websites, but even these are really only general guidelines.

Dittohead,

Very helpful and makes sense. Thanks so much!

Chris
 

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To clarify, 1 cuft of regular resin does have a maximum capacity of 32,000 grains initially from the factory. Once in use, some capacity will be lost as some of the resin beads will become fractured over time and in shipping so those broken pieces will be flushed to drain during regeneration. In addition, some capacity will be utilized during regeneration as the the slow and fast rinse cycles are most often performed using hard water. In anticipation of those losses, most programming is based on 30K grains total capacity per 1 cuft of resin.

As regeneration of a higher percentage of total capacity increases, salt efficiency decreases. For example, to regenerate all 30K grains capacity in 1 cuft of resin, 15 lbs of salt is required, yielding only 2000 grains per lb. With the same 1 cuft resin, only 8 lbs of salt is needed to regenerate 24K capacity (3K grains/lb) while 6 lbs of salt will regenerate 20K of capacity (3,333 grains/lb). A larger 1.5 cuft softener will only need 9 lbs of salt to regenerate 30K of usable capacity (3,333 grains/lb).

It is usually recommended to not reduce below 6 lbs per cuft as water quality may suffer. Also, as the amount of water required to regenerate remains fairly consistent regardless of salt setting, the more frequently regeneration occurs, means more water will be used to regenerate each year. A 6 or 8 lb salt setting is a good compromise between salt efficiency and regeneration frequency.

It is preferred when choosing which size softener to buy, to obtain one large enough so that regeneration will not need to occur more often than weekly using an efficient salt setting, while satisfying the soft water requirements for the household.

Bannerman,

So when I try to change the lb of salt per cu ft in my Fleck 5000sxt am I correct that this is controlled by setting the minutes of Brine Draw in the regen parameters? So my Brine Line Flow Control valve is set to .25 gal/min. and with ~ 3 lb/gal of salt in saturated brine 12 min of Brine Draw would equate to 3 gal of brine flow and 9 lb of salt. Am I getting this right?

Thanks.

Chris
 

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So when you try to change the lb of salt per cu ft in your Fleck 5000sxt that is controlled by setting the minutes of Brine Draw fill (BF) in the regen parameters? So my Brine Line Flow Control valve is set to .25 gal/min. and with ~ 3 lb/gal of salt in saturated brine 12 min of Brine Draw fill would equate to 3 gal of brine flow and 9 lb of salt.
 

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As R4 pointed out, the BLFC is the brine tank refill rate. Each gallon of water entering the brine tank, has a maximum saturation of 3 lbs of salt which is why the BLFC label will usually indicate the refill rate (ie: .25 gpm) as well as the salt which will be dissolved (ie: .75 lbs) at that rate.

As previously stated, the controller's BF setting is in minutes which multiplied by the BLFC rate, is the total amount of water to refill the brine tank. That volume multiplied by 3 is the pounds of salt to be dissolved. The total salt dissolved needs to correspond to the specific capacity that is to be regenerated. For example, if you wish to use a 6 lb salt setting, that will regenerate 20K capacity in your 1 cuft unit. Your BF would be set for 8 minutes while 'C' would be set for 20. The capacity set is not the total capacity of the resin volume but is the capacity that is to be regenerated.
 

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Thanks for the help Reach! I'm still getting mixed up on terminology. One other thing, I did a lot of research on brine saturation levels in water at about 75 deg F (typical ambient here in Florida this time of year. It looks like it's closer to 2.5 lb/gal. So the math now get's me to about 7.5 lb/cu ft. Based on the sizing chart l linked in one of your previous posts this would indicate about C==22,000. Does this seem about right if my salt saturation number turns out to be correct?

Thanks.

Chris
 

Reach4

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One other thing, I did a lot of research on brine saturation levels in water at about 75 deg F
I suspect you are looking at how much salt is in a gallon of saturated brine.

That will differ from how much salt will dissolve in a gallon of water.

http://www.slb.com/~/media/Files/miswaco/product_sheets/sodium_chloride_dry.pdf says Solubility: add 36 grams of salt to 100 ml of water to make saturated brine.

36 grams salt (recipe)
453.592 gramsSalt/gallonWater (conversion factor)
0.0793664791 pounds salt (converted recipe ingredient)
100 ml water (recipe)
3785.41 ml/gal (conversion factor)
0.0264172177 gallons water (converted recipe ingredient)
3.0043466375 PoundsSalt/gallonsWater

One barrel in the oil world is 42 gallons. From page 1 of the PDF, about 109 pounds is mixed with 0.866 barrels of water to make a barrel of saturated brine.

In other words, 3 pounds of salt plus a gallon of water gives about 1.155 gallons of saturated brine.
 
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