Flaring copper for below ground water piping

[Daniel Collick]

I thought I spent enough time researching flaring tools. The Hillmore that I purchased states it will flare 3/4” copper, but, as you can see in the picture, the 3/4” CTS copper doesn’t fit correctly in the block. Yes, we all know the OD is closer to 7/8”, but I figured as long as I’m using common terminology used within our industry that I’d end up with the right tool for the job. So, am I looking for a flaring tool that states, “for 7/8” OD soft tubing” or…?

 

[Reach4]

Check https://www.centurytool.net/45_Flaring_5_8_3_4_7_8_1_1_8_O_D_p/cpsft203.htm

I have no experience with it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Breplum]

I know of nobody using flaring for water supply around here, and never have. Is there a particular application why you are flaring? It is a mechanical joint, which are notoriously unappealing for many reasons.

 

[John Gayewski]

I know of nobody using flaring for water supply around here, and never have. Is there a particular application why you are flaring? It is a mechanical joint, which are notoriously unappealing for many reasons.

It's the only way other than brazing that is legal here. Pro press is not (unless it has changed in the new upc). Any high quality curb stop here is flared. Every service to every house is flared.

 

[John Gayewski]

Anything larger than 1/2" soft copper we use the hammer in type flaring tool.

But there is a set of flaring tools that go on a drill that'll go to 3/4". I'm blanking on the manufacturer right now, but you have to get the expensive one if you get the drill type the cheap ones are Chinese and they say 3/4" but they mean 3/4" acr not cts

 

[Jeff H Young]

the flare tool is likely 3/4 od rather than 7/8 inch.
We solder underground all the time but not withen a building. braze anywhere. flare could be good if fighting water to try to solder . same here with curbstops at meters being flared is or at least was common.
Ive never heard that all joints in copper underground require brazing or flaring only

 

[Daniel Collick]

Yes, inside City of Bellingham especially, and likely all the other cities in Whatcom County, (Washington State) want underground water connections to be flared, or brazed. I’m not under the impression that there’s anything wrong with threaded, but my starting point was copper pipe. I don’t keep an acetylene torch at-the-ready yet, so I wasn’t going to braze my starting point.
Anyways, the flaring tool I purchased says 3/4” right on the block and on the packaging, but as you all can see in the photo, even after annealing the copper, there was NO WAY of closing the block all the way without destroying the pipe end.

 

[Jeff H Young]

viega claims pro press is legal undergroung upc and ipc no idea about every local or state regulations

 

[Breplum]

Propress up to 1-1/4" on soft type L, is UPC and CalifPC approved under slab. Originally required wrapping with silicone tape but that was rescinded and not required any longer.
UPC required brazed joints under slabs as only allowable joint previously.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Propress up to 1-1/4" on soft type L, is UPC and CalifPC approved under slab. Originally required wrapping with silicone tape but that was rescinded and not required any longer.
UPC required brazed joints under slabs as only allowable joint previously.

Yes None of this has anything to do with upc code it is said that Bellingham Wa or the county its in has this requirement and John reports Iowa as well. So far neither reported this is withen the building or under a slab just underground is how I read their posts .
UPC is pretty easy on it its just those local areas that seem to have issue. Id much rather a regular solder joint than a flare any where except for ease of disassembly

 

[Gagecalman]

You need one for 7/8" OD. Only one on Amazon is Hilmor 1838955.
The one Reach posted is the better deal.

 

[Fitter30]

Flare blocks are in o.d. because mostly used for refrigeration which copper is measured by. Plumbers use i.d. for copper. Notice the there are sizes 1/2 and 5/8 also on the block where refrigeration uses 1/2" o.d. and 5/8" o.d. and 1/2" plumbing is 5/8 refrigeration. Make it more confusing 1/4 and 3/8 are used by both.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I cant find anything against copper solder joints underground only 609.3 upc that i found but thats under a concrete slab thats part of the building ? And in that code it dosent mention allowing flare joints under a building slab.

 

[John Gayewski]

I cant find anything against copper solder joints underground only 609.3 upc that i found but thats under a concrete slab thats part of the building ? And in that code it dosent mention allowing flare joints under a building slab.

There's a table with a footnote 2 brazed fittings only. I think it's been changed though, becuse on the digital version the footnote is there, but there are no actual notation for footnote 2.

 

[Jeff H Young]

foot note 2 to 604.1 refers to ASME B16.50 applys to braze joints. I dont even know how to look up those ASME standards , I just know I havent had issue soldering copper underground here other than inside building envelope . I think we can solder under concrete slabs even unless they are part of a building so driveways garden paths etc I didnt think were issue. kinda hoping to learn something here beyond being told we cant do something, even when its an inspector I like them to point out the violation . And I cant see anything that lets us flare pipe in areas we cant solder either?

 

[John Gayewski]

foot note 2 to 604.1 refers to ASME B16.50 applys to braze joints. I dont even know how to look up those ASME standards , I just know I havent had issue soldering copper underground here other than inside building envelope . I think we can solder under concrete slabs even unless they are part of a building so driveways garden paths etc I didnt think were issue. kinda hoping to learn something here beyond being told we cant do something, even when its an inspector I like them to point out the violation . And I cant see anything that lets us flare pipe in areas we cant solder either?

Like I said. I think it's been changed Jeff.

I think you have to buy some of the ASME information. This section probably only says you can't braze dwv fittings, but I can't be sure.

I seem to remember a section or footnote which layed out braze or mechanical connections only, but looking online its not apparent.

 

[Daniel Collick]

Flare blocks are in o.d. because mostly used for refrigeration which copper is measured by. Plumbers use i.d. for copper. Notice the there are sizes 1/2 and 5/8 also on the block where refrigeration uses 1/2" o.d. and 5/8" o.d. and 1/2" plumbing is 5/8 refrigeration. Make it more confusing 1/4 and 3/8 are used by both.

Thank you for confirming.