Eljer Titan refill valve shuts off prematurely

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cheesehead

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Hello:

I just recently installed a brand new Eljer Titan toilet that worked perfectly for three days. On the fourth day I flushed the toilet and the tank wouldn't refill. I checked the water supply and everything was fine there and after further investagation I found that if I turned down the water flow coming from the supply I was able to get the tank to refill...but very slowly. Everytime I tried to turn up the flow from the supply valve the refill valve shuts off prematurely. Any thoughts?

titan_front2.jpg
 
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Probedude

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There's probably debris in the valve. What valve is in there and can it be disassembled so the innards can be flushed out?
 

Jadnashua

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Did yous use the Watts flood-safe hose? If so, replace it with a good conventional one.

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cheesehead

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Jadnashua, You nailed my problem on the head I think! I took apart my refill to check for debris and it all looked fine, but the problem kept happening. So, yesterday I was returning the other hose I had bought and it dawned on me....FloodSafe, there had to be a valve in there. Actually have had more water on the floor since I have been disconnecting and reconnecting multiple times. Oh...and yes...it is a Watts FloodSafe hose. Here I thought I was being smart, only to spending waaaay to much time on this. Oh and in case you haven't all noticed...I am not a professional.

Thanks for the help!
 

Redwood

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They are unnecessary junk!
They protect you from a no burst hose bursting.
How dumb is that?
And with that added protection lol they bring you false trips!
 

Probedude

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They are unnecessary junk!
They protect you from a no burst hose bursting.
How dumb is that?
And with that added protection lol they bring you false trips!

I was at Watts in Phoenix AZ a couple of years ago for a demonstration to get them to license some IP from us. That was the first time I saw their floodsafe product.

It's a good idea (flood prevention) and it protects at the place closest to the shutoff valve. It just doesn't work in all situations and the cutoff point is not adjustable. Even if it were, people have differing flow rates depending on many conditions.

I forget the studies, but insurance company #'s on the cost of flood damage is staggering. For people in cold country, with a cabin in the middle of nowhere that they only go to 6 months out of the year, or in a rental - this product has its place. Much simpler and less expensive than WaterCop. Still some bugs to work out though.
 
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Redwood

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I was at Watts in Phoenix AZ a couple of years ago for a demonstration get them to license some IP from us. That was the first time I saw their floodsafe product.

It's a good idea (flood prevention) and it protects at the place closest to the shutoff valve. It just doesn't work in all situations and the cutoff point is not adjustable. Even if it were, people have differing flow rates depending on many conditions.

I forget the studies, but insurance company #'s on the cost of flood damage is staggering. For people in cold country, with a cabin in the middle of nowhere that they only go to 6 months out of the year, or in a rental - this product has its place. Much simpler and less expensive than WaterCop. Still some bugs to work out though.

If you are talking about the Watts Floodsafe Water Detector Shutoff System

LeakSensorKit_2.jpg


I give the concept my seal of approval and say that I myself am tempted to try this product. I think this type of product is exactly what is needed to combat the losses due to water damage.



If you are talking about the Watts Floodsafe Auto-Shutoff Connectors as am I then we have a major disagreement and I will shred to pieces any argument that you or any marketing genius at Watts can come up with that they serve any useful function in 99% of the leaks that they would be involved in.

FS-CFC-S-FF_coil.jpg


They truly are a product idea that hatched out of the beady little brain of a marketing genius. No self respecting engineer would ever feel that this product has and redeeming value what so ever! The marketing geniuses got themselves whipped into a frenzy over the idea and the engineers just shrugged their shoulders shook their heads and designed it as requested by the boss. This was not a fight they could win even though the idea was a total loser idea.

Lets look first at the point where these devices will shut off. The flow though a fixture is dependent on 2 things. The capacity of the pipes supplying the fixture and the pressure provided. The pressure by code should be less than 80 PSI.

We don't really need to concern ourselves with the actual numbers I'm just asking you to examine the concept.

How much water flows per minute into a toilet tank as it refills?

How much water flows per minute into either side hot or cold of a lav sink, or, kitchen sink as it flows?

How much water flows per minute into an refrigerator icemaker line or, water dispenser when it is used?

How much water per minute flows into a dishwasher when it fills?

Now the biggie!

How much water per minute flows into a washing machine either hot or cold as it fills?

The answer to any of these would be a pretty decent amout of water with the icemaker being the least and the washing machine being the highest. Any of these fixtures if they were allowed to leak onto the floor at their normal fill rate would inflict massive amounts of water damage in a relatively short period of time. We're talking ceilings on floors below falling etc.

So the Flood Safe valve will only shut off when the flow exceeds the normal flow of water to the device that it is hooked up to. This we have already established as a pretty fair amount of water that could do quite a bit of damage.

The vast majority of leaks that occur are at substantially less than the rated flow for these fixtures and appliances. We are talking about plastic solenoid valves with cracks, toilet tank bolts leaking, fill valve on toilets with cracks, loose connections, etc. None of these will activate the protective valve.

About the only thing that will activate the Floodsafe valve is a catastrophic failure of the hose, or a connector on the outlet end! Even then on a house with a poor water supply the flow may not be enough to activate the valve.

On the other hand, the house that has a very good supply and higher than normal pressure it is quite often that the fixtures and appliances will fill at a higher than normal rate and cause activation of the Floodsafe valve. These are the nuisance trips that we plumbers see all to often and is what the original poster in this thread experienced.

The hoses made today with the braided stainless steel outer jacket are known as No-Burst Hoses. There is a reason why they are referred to with this name. Can you guess why they are called that? It's not rocket science!

So the cold cruel fact is that these Floodsafe valves are simply protecting a No-Burst hose!:eek: Kinda dumb if you ask me.

Now lets throw in a story of the first one I ever met. I received a call where the Watts Floodsafe connector had broken on a customers toilet. The customer had installed it not me! The connector had broken at the point indicated in the picture below.

brokenconnector.jpg


You will note that this left a compression connector attached to the angle stop valve spewing water while the Flood safe valve was left broken off sitting on the wrong side of the leak. The construction of this connector was less than impressive. If this customer was not home at the time it failed the damage would have been huge.

In summary it is these reasons why I consider these valves to be a useless device that I would not recommend to anyone. They are truly an illusion when it comes to protection. and they offer more nusances than they are worth.

I will continue to install and recommend regular No-Burst supply lines without the Floodsafe valve.
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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Home Depot loses $1000's of dollars a week nationwide to those floodsafe connectors. I don't know if they are the Watt's brand or not....but they are a supply line I will not install, ever.


They ought to take them to a far away field and bring C-4 explosives to the party and call that the perfect ending of a bad idea.


But, homeowners are convinced they work....so then enters the profit machine based solely on one's inability to focus clearly and understand logic.

Works every time!
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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but insurance company #'s on the cost of flood damage is staggering. For people in cold country, with a cabin in the middle of nowhere that they only go to 6 months out of the year, or in a rental - .


Once again,



Wouldn't it just be easier to just Shut the Water Off in these situations to the Entire House?

That would be too easy though.
 

Redwood

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Home Depot loses $1000's of dollars a week nationwide to those floodsafe connectors. I don't know if they are the Watt's brand or not....but they are a supply line I will not install, ever.


They ought to take them to a far away field and bring C-4 explosives to the party and call that the perfect ending of a bad idea.


But, homeowners are convinced they work....so then enters the profit machine based solely on one's inability to focus clearly and understand logic.

Works every time!

Yep thats what they are is Watts Floodsafe Connectors
 

hj

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floodsafe

The problem with the Floodsafe is not the flow rate, but how quickly the faucet or valve opens. If it opens "slowly" so there is not a sudden decrease in pressure they work just like an ordinary supply. The problems come in when the supply valve is turned on too fast, the device opens instantaneously, then it is interpreted as a break and shuts off.
 

Jimbo

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The "loophole" in floodsafe connectors is that they assume the "break" will occur at the faucet or toilet end, and they protect you from that. Any old hose COULD break at the valve end, and in fact, there have been a lot of reported failures of the floodsafe AT the floodsafe fitting!
 
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