electrical plan for Kitchen remodel

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by rockycmt, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. rockycmt

    rockycmt New Member

    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    New York
    Doing a kitchen remodel. I am going to rewire the room with new circuits from my main 200 amp panel. Currently the kitchen is on some shared circuits that I would like to clean up. I am looking for some advise on the layout.

    Here is what I will have in the kitchen as far as electrical….
    Appliances
    Fridge 15 OR 20 Ampere, 115 Volts, 60 Hertz (1/second).
    Full Gas range 15 Ampere, 120 Volts, 60 Hertz (1/second).
    Dishwasher 15 OR 20 Ampere, 120 Volts, 60 Hertz (1/second).
    Small Microwave Small countertop microwave

    Counter outlets 6 – 8
    5 recessed lights
    Under the counter lights
    Garbage disposal

    I have the ability to run homeruns from the main box. What would be the ideal configuration? I am more concerned about the appliances.

    Here is what I think. Feel free to rip it apart..

    New circuit for the Fridge
    New circuit from the Dishwasher and Stove
    New Circuit for counter receptacles and garbage disposal GFCI
    New Circuit for all lights.

    If you think this is overkill or underkill I would love to hear your comments.
  2. Chris75

    Chris75 Electrician

    Messages:
    608
    Location:
    Litchfield, CT


    This is what I tend to do,

    fridge, 15amp dedicated
    Dishwasher & garbage disposal, 20a dedicated receptacle under sink
    TWO- 20amp circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles (per code)
    15 amp circuit for lighting.
  3. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,566
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Why would you install a 20 amp circuit to the disposal and dishwasher?
    Most that I have installed call for a max 15 amp circuit in the installation book.
  4. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    I just finished up a complete gut and remodel and figured while it was all apart I may as well rewire everything. I went ahead and ran 20a circuits to everything since cost is not a huge difference and who knows what the future may bring eh? I ran seperate circuits for my fridge, dishwasher, microwave. Then two more circuits for outlets and another for lights. Overkill? Maybe but I won't have to worry about future upgrades. Btw, 12-2 is a pain in the ass :)
  5. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    There are a lot of energy "hogs" in a kitchen!

    Might want to think about counter-top appliances as well. Things like a convection oven, deep fryer, hot plate, etc.

    Look at the wattage on all these things and you will see how they can quickly add up! Then plug in a vacuum while these are on and pop goes the breaker!

    It seems to me there are NEVER enough outlets in the kitchen for all the counter-top appliances.

    Whenever I get around to remodeling my kitchen, I'm going to to install a subpanel nearby and plenty of fourplex outlets along the countertop, each on its own 20 amp breaker. Then of course the dedicated circuits for refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave, etc.

    To find the amperage used for an appliance, go to the following link and enter the voltage and wattage, then it will give you the amperage. (Don't forget that vacuum!)

    Use the "Convert Watts to Amps" calculator under "Single Phase"...
    http://www.jobsite-generators.com/power_calculators.html
  6. rockycmt

    rockycmt New Member

    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    New York
    Countertop outlets. I was just reading something that states that kitchen counter outlets have to be on 2 circuits. Is this true? and if so Why?

    I know that they have to be GFCIed if near water.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,334
    Location:
    New England
    Yes, you need at least 2 circuits for recepticles dedicated in a kitchen...a single item like a toaster or microwave could nearly tap one out, and how often do you have more than one thing working? The code also specifies how far apart (max) they can be. I think it's 4', but don't quote me. If you notice, most things like toasters, electric frying pans, etc., only have short cords, so you don't want to have the outlets too far apart or you may not be able to use it where you want.

    Then, most major appliances specify a dedicated circuit, or at least recommend it.
  8. rockycmt

    rockycmt New Member

    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    New York
    So I am going to have 4 outlets total. 2 on one counter (Sink side) and 2 on the other. Can I set it up so each counter is its own circuit? or Should I mix it? I would not expect to use 2 plug in appliances on the same side at the same time.

    Which is more correct?
  9. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    Why not splurge and have 4 separate 20 amp circuits?

    And each outlet a 4-plex!
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,334
    Location:
    New England
    That may not be enough outlets...the code is fairly specific about how far apart they can be.
  11. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA
    It all depends on what the size and rating is of each appliance. That is what determines what you need to run.

    There are a lot of appliances out there to choose from.
  12. rockycmt

    rockycmt New Member

    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    New York
    This is an extreemly small kitchen. No outlet will be more than 4 feet apart. I only have 6 open slots in my pannel. So I can not run 4 circuits for the counter outlets. So I guess I will run one 20A circuit per side.
  13. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    If it is a small kitchen, then you are less likely to have a lot of counter top power hog appliances sitting around (and using them all at the same time) like bread maker, deep fryer, hot plate, toaster oven, etc.

    So two circuits should be plenty.
  14. rockycmt

    rockycmt New Member

    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    New York
    I am surprised the Dishwasher does not need to be GFCI. Here are the reqs
    ------
    Electrical Requirements
    • This appliance must be supplied with 120V, 60 Hz., and
    connected to an individual properly grounded branch
    circuit, protected by a 15 or 20 ampere circuit breaker
    or time delay fuse.
    • Wiring must be 2-wire with ground and rated for
    75°C (176°F).


    Grounding Instructions—Cable Direct
    This appliance must be connected to a grounded metal,
    permanent wiring system, or an equipment grounding
    conductor must be run with the circuit conductors and
    be connected to the equipment grounding terminal or
    lead on the appliance.

    _______

    I figured since it involves water this should be on a GFCI circuit?
  15. burleymike

    burleymike New Member

    Messages:
    118
    Location:
    Idaho
    When I did my kitchen I ran 4 20 amp circuits with 3 recepticles on each. Not all of them are near water so I did not have to use GFCIs on all of them. I decided to use GFCIs on them all because water gets all over a kitchen espically when my wife goes nuts cleaning the coutners.

    I ran a dedicated 20 amp line to the gas range and fridge. I also ran 14/3 to under the sink, one circuit for the disposal and one for the DW. Both manuals said 15 amp circuit MAX.

    I put the lights and vent hood on a 15 amp circuit.

    Now when my wife is making a holiday meal she can crank up the fryer, hot plates, blender, and mixer all at once and no tripped breakers. The best part is the fridge no longer dims the lights when it kicks on. This house was quite under wired.
  16. beekerc

    beekerc IT Consultant / Network Engineer

    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Seattle
    working with wire

    tell me about it, not my favorite either. but for real fun, i ran 30A, 10-2 wire for my server closet (because the UPS I want has an L5-30P plug). oy vey!
  17. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    Quick question?

    If a circuit only needs 12/2 wire, is it okay to run 12/3 and leave the red disconnected and wire nutted at the outlet and in the panel.

    The reasoning is to have more options in the future or if one wire is bad after everything is done, you have a spare wire to work with. Is there any code violation against this?
  18. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA

    No, as long as the wires are marked for future use and terminated properly.
  19. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    I ask the question because if someone is rewiring their entire house, it probably makes sense to run all 12/3 instead of 12/2 because it is the same amount of work and only costs a little more money. If there ever is a problem in the future with one of the wires(drywaller screws through one by accident or whatever) you have a spare without the need to fish through. Or if someone swaps a ceiling fan for a light fixture and they want to control the fan and light with 2 different switches, the wires are there.
  20. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA
    For an entire house, the cost would be much higher than you think. In addition, you will have to preplan the box sizes in order to stay compliant with conductor fill for the additional wires.

    Also, if the jacket of NM cable is puncture severely enough to cause one of the wires to break then the whole thing needs to be replaced or a junction box if it is an accessible area.

    I am all for running 14/3 to fixtures from switches as long as you also preplan by installing ceiling fan rated boxes just in case.
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