Best compact setup for whole house no-salt conditioning and GAC / KDF-55 filtration?

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Volvofan

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Greetings, all. Thanks for all the great info being shared on this forum. After a fair bit of research on this and many other sites, I've hit a bit of a wall and need some experienced advice:

SITUATION: hard water and chlorine are causing taste/odor/drink ability issues and significant scale buildup on plumbing fixtures.

MISSION: Economically filter and condition (without salt) at point of entry, with a possible additional filter for drinking water. Maintain satisfactory pressure and flow rates (8-12 gpm) for an active family of four throughout the life of the filters.

EXECUTION: Experienced DIYer. Space constrained... would like to install this under the entryway stairs of our split level, with a max headroom of only about 42 inches. 1" supply line. Plan to use KDF-55 and GAC (open to suggestion on brand and micron size) followed by anti-scale media (open to suggestions on type/brand... Approx 25 grains of hardness). Will put a .5 micron carbon block filter on line to fridge/icemaker as well. Looking for a maintenance schedule (for the POE ones) of quarterly backwashes and no more than annual filter changes. Can field-fabricate all necessary plumbing for shutoff, bypass, and manual or automatic backwash. Considering the following courses of action:

1: A pair of dual BB 4.5 x 20 filters running in parallel to sustain flow rate. GAC/KDF cartridge followed by anti-scale cartridge. Pros - inexpensive, many cartridges to choose from, no worries about space constraint. Cons- Lower flow rate (8gpm max?), less filtration area so less contact time (GAC/KDF filters would have about .15 cu ft each), and backwashing is less effective on cartridges vs. free media.

2: Two 10 x 35 tanks in series (perhaps with a BB KDF-55 4.5 x 20 filter first?)... One GAC then one anti-scale. Pros- simpler install compared to parallel, greater filtration cu ft, more effective backwash, cheaper replacement media in the long run, perhaps longer maintenance interval? Greater flow rate? Unsure of how to figure this fornthese tanks. Cons- probably more expensive, height may be a factor, especially for automatic control heads. Would like to use Watts Vortech tanks, I think.

3: Other options I am missing? How would you do it?

SERVICE AND SUPPORT: Estimated budget of $750-1500 for major components. Many plumbing fittings, valves, and pipe already on-hand.

COMMAND AND SIGNAL: N/A.

Thanks in advance for any assistance or advice you all might provide!

-Jon
 

Reach4

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3: Other options I am missing? How would you do it?
The backwashing carbon filter is a good start for chlorine and maybe other stuff. I would probably follow that with a Big Blue filter housing, which may not have much to do. I would maybe put a PENTEK-WP1BB20P 1 micron wound polypropylene cartridge to start. I might plumb a bypass around it, because otherwise an improbable leak would bring down my water system. I keep spare O-rings, tho I have not needed a spare yet. I would hope to swap the cartridge maybe once per year. I would use a water softener with salt for softening. The softener I would use should be bigger than the 10 x 35 tank. I would would want a 2 cuft or bigger softener.

I am not a pro. I am a skeptic of those anti-scale salt-free softeners that don't soften. Maybe you know of some independent testing that you believe.
 

ditttohead

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BB for whole house chlorine reduction application, not advised. LOL, annual filter changes, family of four, using BB. There are real world limitations. Performance will be very poor. Remove scale without a traditional softener... there are many alternative water treatment methods. I will be doing an extensive test of these technologies starting January 15th of 2016. My testing protocols will be highly scientific, fair, and this is being done for publication and pear review. We will be testing anti-scale medias, magnetic, catalytic, traditional salt systems, R.O. KDF, polyphosphate and a few more to be determined. My real world experience says that some alternative methods lessen hardness problems sometimes. Traditional softening works almost every time.
 

Reach4

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LOL, annual filter changes, family of four, using BB. There are real world limitations.
I was suggesting that BB filter as an option following the backwashing filter.
 
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ditttohead

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BB for whole house chlorine reduction application, not advised. LOL, annual filter changes, family of four, using BB. There are real world limitations. Performance will be very poor. Remove scale without a traditional softener... there are many alternative water treatment methods. I will be doing an extensive test of these technologies starting January 15th of 2016. My testing protocols will be highly scientific, fair, and this is being done for publication and peer review. We will be testing anti-scale medias, magnetic, catalytic, traditional salt systems, R.O. KDF, polyphosphate and a few more to be determined. My real world experience says that some alternative methods lessen hardness problems sometimes. Traditional softening works almost every time.
 
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Volvofan

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I realize this design is suboptimal in many respects. Not the best filter size to get good flow rates, perhaps not the most economical, doesn't use a salt-based water softener, etc. However, I chose it due to space constraints and versatility. I think that adding a backwashing function to the filters will help extend their life and mitigate some of the problems. I welcome your feedback, especially if you see any major issues or calculation errors.

Just noticed... the settings for valve 2 should read: Svc/backwash, purge A, shutoff, purge B. Also, I should annotate that in order to "flush" the system after initial installation, one would leave valves 1 & 2 in service position, then turn valve 3 to the 90 degree or 180 degree position.

Thanks,

-Jon
 
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ditttohead

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Nice try but... no.
The system is already plumbed "upflow" or basically continuously backwashing. TAC medias are designed to be in a fluidized state for proper function and thus are run upflow. RFC filters will not benefit from reverse flow other than to possibly blow some sediment off the surface, but more likely you would simply blow the outer poly shell of the filter. The KDF filter is also an upflow, so reversing flow would do basically nothing. Post a picture of the space and size you have, your system design is getting too expensive and complex for something that should be fairly simple. Also, the KDF is typically placed before the carbon since it will reduce the majority of the chlorine allowing the carbon filter to do a better job of organics, tastes and odor reduction.
 

Volvofan

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Nice try but... no.
The system is already plumbed "upflow" or basically continuously backwashing. TAC medias are designed to be in a fluidized state for proper function and thus are run upflow. RFC filters will not benefit from reverse flow other than to possibly blow some sediment off the surface, but more likely you would simply blow the outer poly shell of the filter. The KDF filter is also an upflow, so reversing flow would do basically nothing. Post a picture of the space and size you have, your system design is getting too expensive and complex for something that should be fairly simple. Also, the KDF is typically placed before the carbon since it will reduce the majority of the chlorine allowing the carbon filter to do a better job of organics, tastes and odor reduction.

Thanks for the quick feedback! Does KDF also have to be fluidized in service? What happens at lower flow rates?

I am running the KDF before the carbon, then the anti-scale media last.

How about if I modify the setup so it backwashes ONLY the carbon filter? Is there a signifincant flow rate gain from radial vs axial flow GAC filters? I could simply get another couple fillable cartridges and some GAC media.

I only have 3 feet of headroom from concrete to joists and about 5 feet of slab wall to run across.

Thanks again,
-Jon
 

ditttohead

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The RFC filter is just that, radial flow. "Backwashing it will not work, it will probably just blow the outer shell. KDF is run in a packed bed but in a BB design, it is technically upflow. Running it less than full will allow some fluidization during service (backwash) but this is not recommended. I would also not recommend KDF ahead of TAC style medias. These medias are highly sensitive to trace amounts of copper. Since KDF is copper/zinc based...

What is your exact space... to the inch, there is likely a better solution than BB's. If BB's are the only way... lets look at some other designs.

PM sent
 

Bannerman

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The initial post reads that Volvofan designated the 42" high area under the stairs as the intended location for the water treatment equipment. It appears that only due to the space limitations of that location, he is attempting to modify the operation of various smaller, off-the-shelf components to build a one of a kind treatment system to address his water issues. The ideas being proposed, appear to be unsuitable for the intended purpose.

Perhaps Volvofan should reconsider and choose an alternate location for placement of more common and proven standard equipment of adequate size to effectively treat his water conditions at point-of-entry.
 
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Volvofan

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All-

Thanks for the assistance. I will take this back to the drawing board sometime next week and reassess / redesign. Dittohead, thanks for the PM; you'll be my first phone call for supplies/advice when/if needed.

-Jon
 

ditttohead

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He later stated 3 feet. That is a lot different than 42". 3 Feet leaves few good options, 42" opens up a lot of possible workable solutions. KDF before TAC, sometimes ok, but even trace amounts of copper foul the media, so I avoid this combo. You could put the KDF after the TAC, but that kind of defeats the purpose, unless you have known heavy metal issues that the KDF can remediate. KDF is usually the first media since it is used to reduce the carbons need to remove chlorine. This type of application gets a little more technical than most would want to read about, and a phone call can quickly get rid of 20 boring questions that are not worth reading. :)
 

Bannerman

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with a max headroom of only about 42 inches.

I only have 3 feet of headroom from concrete to joists

Perhaps it is 36" below the joists and 42" in-between?

As requested, due to the tight space constraints, accurate and specific dimensions are needed.

but even trace amounts of copper foul the media
So is copper plumbing a concern?
Would the GAC filter placed between the KDF and the TAC media, reduce the potential of copper fouling originating from the KDF?
 
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Volvofan

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Bannerman is correct (in both posts, for that matter). 36" to joists, plus another 6" that could be used for clearance for an auto-backwashing control head or something. Sorry I did not make that clearer.

I did call KDF and spoke with a tech about the copper-fouling concern. I am not surprised by his reply (given who signs his paychecks) but he indicated that the media gives off no more copper into the water than regular copper plumbing does. He stated that he understood the sensitivity of "scale stop" (his term... Brand name?) media to copper contamination, but that KDF "should not" (famous last words) pose an issue. I understand that copper plumbing does develop a "shield" of sorts that reduces shedding after a certain point, and that the KDF media would likely not experience the same effect. At the same time, since the copper in KDF is combined with zinc into an alloy, is is still known to be harmful to TAC media? Perhaps a call to the TAC manufacturer would be in order if I/we were to proceed further down this rabbit hole.

Thanks, all!

-Jon
 

ditttohead

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Perhaps it is 36" below the joists and 42" in-between?

As requested, due to the tight space constraints, accurate and specific dimensions are needed.


So is copper plumbing a concern?
Would the GAC filter placed between the KDF and the TAC media, reduce the potential of copper fouling originating from the KDF?


New copper plumbing is more of a concern than old copper plumbing. Or applications that has a corrosive LSI vs a scaling LSI.
GAC will do nothing for copper remediation.
 

ditttohead

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Regarding copper fouling and KDF, this is what we here, but what we see is a different story. As you stated, older copper has a "patina" or a protective layer. KDF is an amazing media, one of my personal favorites, but the anti-scale media is highly sensitive to even the smallest amount copper from our real world experience.
Anti-Scaling manufacturers will usually deny that copper fouling is a big issue but... again, they will rarely say anything is a big issue, and that their media is better than softening, and that if used correctly your car will fly, you will live forever, and you will be the next MMA champion...

We sell different brands of anti-scaling medias, we also sell traditional softeners. We manufacture alternative treatment methods ourselves.

Everybody who works here has a traditional softener.
 
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