Another copper pin hole leak

[Bill Allbritton]

I am seeking help for isolating what is causing my copper pipes to develop pin hole leaks. I realize this is a common problem in Florida and sometimes hard to determine what is causing it. My house is 19 years old and I have had about 6 leaks in the last 11 years. All my pipes are above the slab as I have a 2 story house. Only 2 of the leaks have actually been inside the house, the rest were in the incoming copper pipe just inside or outside my utility room. I have had the water tested, and the only potential corrosive element was the chlorine, which was not all that high. I had a Copper Knight installed about 10 years ago, but have still had the 2 leaks inside the house since then. I am in the process of talking with them, because I think i didn't check the maintenance correctly, so I am now monitoring it frequently.

My question is this. I have galvanized nipples connected to my outside faucets and then screwed into the copper fitting inside the wall. Although I do have a small amount of rust come from the faucet when you first turn it on when the faucet has not been used recently, the faucets otherwise have had no problems. Unless the fitting in the wall has some dielectric union on it, the setup creates a potential corrosion situation when the dissimilar metals touch. Could this be causing the corrosion in the rest of the house? None of the leaks have been near the outside faucets. I'm at my witts end on this and just trying to get a handle on it.

I am on a city water system, and I am not the only house with leaks.

Copper Knight
http://copperknight.com/
727-409-0406

 

[Jadnashua]

You get the corrosion where the two metals touch...I've not seen or heard of it creating problems downstream.

Using the copper pipes for a grounding point might give you some problems. Soil contact can sometimes cause corrosion depending on the soil properties, but it sounds like yours is not happening there. Every once in awhile, you might get a bad batch of copper, but I think it would be hard to say a whole neighborhood would have that issue!

One thing that could be endemic in a neighborhood all put up by the same builder is improperly preparing the pipes when making joints. There's a reason why a tubing cutter has a reforming tool on the end...when you cut the tubing, it creates a lip. If your water pressure and flow rates are high, over time, if you don't get rid of that lip (which is standard practice with good workmanship), it creates turbulence...the faster the water, the more turbulence. If that's the cause of the pinholes, it usually happens as a row of pinholes downstream of the offending joint. It takes longer to remove that lip...time is money. They're long gone before it shows up as a problem many years later.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MACPLUMB]

Call a Electrician Contractor that has OHM meter that can measure stray electric currant that is sometimes a problem like
yours, or as posted above the pipe were not properly reamed

 

[Bill Allbritton]

OK, I am not an electrician, but I do know how to use an OHM meter. Where would I start testing?

 

[Bill Allbritton]

You get the corrosion where the two metals touch...I've not seen or heard of it creating problems downstream.

Using the copper pipes for a grounding point might give you some problems. Soil contact can sometimes cause corrosion depending on the soil properties, but it sounds like yours is not happening there. Every once in awhile, you might get a bad batch of copper, but I think it would be hard to say a whole neighborhood would have that issue!

One thing that could be endemic in a neighborhood all put up by the same builder is improperly preparing the pipes when making joints. There's a reason why a tubing cutter has a reforming tool on the end...when you cut the tubing, it creates a lip. If your water pressure and flow rates are high, over time, if you don't get rid of that lip (which is standard practice with good workmanship), it creates turbulence...the faster the water, the more turbulence. If that's the cause of the pinholes, it usually happens as a row of pinholes downstream of the offending joint. It takes longer to remove that lip...time is money. They're long gone before it shows up as a problem many years later.

My house is grounded to the main input pipe with a copper ground wire that runs directly to the ground rod outside. I thought this was standard practice, could this be a problem?

 

[Reach4]

I have had the water tested, and the only potential corrosive element was the chlorine, which was not all that high.

What was the pH? What was the hardness?

Did the report give a Langelier Index or Ryznar Index Corrosivity number?

Do you have have a softener?

I don't think your Copper Knight is going to help. If there was a wire running down the middle of the pipe, that could work. But to say you are going to charge the water IMO is not going to help any more than copper bracelets help arthritis.

Either your water is corrosive or your copper pipe used in the development was inferior. Water departments often add chemicals to make the delivered water less corrosive.

 

[Bill Allbritton]

PH was 7.72
water is very hard at 262
no water softner yet.
the report did not give either Langelier or Ryznar, but I may can ask for additional tests to get it.

 

[Reach4]

PH was 7.72
water is very hard at 262
no water softner yet.
the report did not give either Langelier or Ryznar, but I may can ask for additional tests to get it.

With that pH and hardness, I am very surprised that your neighborhood would be seeing a copper corrosion problem.

Kit 9o from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/ includes those corrosivity tests among many others. That test is usually used for well water.

http://extension.psu.edu/natural-re...r-testing/pollutants/corrosive-water-problems has some discussions.

Have some neighbors already had repiping done? That may be the solution, but it is big money. I would think that the repipe people would get better after working on houses from the same development.

For your poll, I presumed 1=yes and 2=no. Steel and zinc next to copper can corrode, and they will not make the copper corrode. If anything, they would protect the nearby copper. This is because copper is more electronegative (less electropositive) than zinc and steel.

 

[Bill Allbritton]

yes, several people have repiped with pex. All of the houses out here are custom built over 20 years, none were done by the same builder as far as I know. Yes, with the water analysis, I remain stumped. If there was some filter I could put on the house I would. My best guess at this time is that there may be some stray current somewhere causing the problem. If I could find a plumber or electricin that specialized in finding the cause, I would, but as of yet have not found one. I use plumbers and electricians from Tallahassee, Florida.

 

[Reach4]

Is there ink on your copper pipes, and if so, is it red or blue? Red is the thinnest.

 

[Bill Allbritton]

yep, it is Blue.

 

[Reach4]

yep, it is Blue.

The mystery deepens. I thought you were going to say red.

 

[Jadnashua]

There's a difference between bonding your copper piping to ground, and using it as a ground. It is common to bond the pipe to ground, but not to use it as a ground. If there's any current running through the pipe, since your water is not pure, the water can act somewhat like an electrolyte, and cause problems. Be careful at this, but if you remove the bonding of your copper pipe and then see if there's a voltage between it and your ground point, that would be enlightening. If you have a problem...once you remove that bonding, you might find that the pipe is electrically hot. If it is, that needs to be resolved, and if you're not careful, you could hurt yourself.

 

[SteveW]

I assume you don't have the "bad drywall" problem that I've heard about in Florida?

 

[SteveW]

From another forum:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=174709

 

[Reach4]

That https://www.wsscwater.com/files/live/sites/wssc/files/PDFs/Study of Pinhole leaks Report_1503042.pdf is very interesting.

Bill Allbritton, if you get a water test, it will be interesting to see what your aluminum number is.

 

[Bill Allbritton]

My water test did not include aluminum, Is it corrosive?

 

[Bill Allbritton]

There's a difference between bonding your copper piping to ground, and using it as a ground. It is common to bond the pipe to ground, but not to use it as a ground. If there's any current running through the pipe, since your water is not pure, the water can act somewhat like an electrolyte, and cause problems. Be careful at this, but if you remove the bonding of your copper pipe and then see if there's a voltage between it and your ground point, that would be enlightening. If you have a problem...once you remove that bonding, you might find that the pipe is electrically hot. If it is, that needs to be resolved, and if you're not careful, you could hurt yourself.

 

[Bill Allbritton]

I am assuming mine is just bonded. It passed all inspections, and my builder was also a master electrician. I can use an OHM meter, but I would probably just prefer to have it examined by an electrician. My builder has long since retired and is now in his mid eighties.

 

[Reach4]

My water test did not include aluminum, Is it corrosive?

I don't know for sure, but did you read the paper mentioned in #16? That seems pretty much to the point.