advice on wire gauge for built in oven

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by jono604, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. Electromen

    Electromen New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I called my supplier, the owner has never heard of a GFCI receptacle specifically for appliances. I check the Leviton web site. I don't see one there either.
    Does anyone have a link?
  2. Chad Schloss

    Chad Schloss Member

    Messages:
    329
    Location:
    USA
    This page is helpful for how they work. It even stated why they should not be used on appliances:

    http://www.rhtubs.com/GFCI/GFCI.htm

    Why a GFCI should not be used with major appliances:

    " A Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter is supposed to be a valuable safety device. Why not use them everywhere, even on large appliances with 3 wire plugs?

    A properly grounded 3 prong outlet provides protection for both people and the appliance should a short circuit develop between a live wireand the cabinet.
    Highly inductive loads like large motors or even fluorescent lamps or fixtures on the same circuit can cause nuisance tripping of GFCIs which needless to say is not desirable for something like a refrigerator."
  3. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    There is no one that has said that they don’t trip. What I am saying is if they do trip it is for a reason and the ONLY reason is a difference in current between the black and white wire. They don’t just trip for any reason. This is fact like it or not.

    The books are the facts, the numbers are the facts, anything else is conjure due to the lack of the facts. A resistance of 30k between the hot and neutral is enough to cause a GFCI to open. This can come from moisture. It can come from inductance between the conductors in a cord if the cord has been treated roughly. The GFCI didn’t trip for just any reason; it tripped because of a reason and that is the facts.

    One fact is for sure GFCI protection has been required for every receptacle in commercial kitchens where there is all kinds of electrical motor driven equipment including refrigerators and freezers. I can’t help but wonder just how all these devices are not having the same problem. Can you explain it to us?
  4. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Books are always facts eh? Hmm... wonder how many times I could disprove that statement... How many times have the books been wrong? How many scientific conclusions have been shown to be wrong, though they were considered and treated as fact until proven so? How often do things just do weird crap (edited myself there, does this make you happy jw?) that people can't explain?

    It must be nice, living in your perfect little world where everything works as it "should." The padded walls would tick me off though.

    I'll tell you what. I'll agree with you, if you agree to replace every one of my perfect condition tools that trips a GFCI. I'll send you a bill each time it happens. Whatcha think? We can do it right... I'll have the tool checked when the breaker trips, if it turns out to have any damage that could trip a GFCI, you're off the hook. If it turns up clean, you pay the bill for the inspection, and pay to replace the tool (since obviously the inspection was wrong and I need a new tool), b/c there's no other reason the darn thing would trip. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that you're right. I can always use an extra of the tools I own, so I'm game.

    I can't say anything about commercial setups, b/c I don't do anything with them. I'm 100% residential. I have no experience with commercial, so I can't make any particularly informed comments about it... maybe some of the pros that do commercial work can comment there.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
  5. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Okay now I understand, its just a residential thing. Everything is fine on the commercial side but once we go to residential everythigh goes wrong.
    Still don't change the FACT that the only thing that will cause a GFCI device to open is a difference in the current on the two wires
  6. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Just because it is a fact that they sense difference between the black and white wire, Does Not mean that you have a Ground Fault, In only means that You May have one.

    It could trip because of noise on the line.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  7. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    If there is harmonics on a residential system to the power that it would cause a GFCI or Arc-Fault device to open there will be much larger problems that the homeowner will have to deal with.
  8. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Houston, TX
  9. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
  10. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    True, they are Equipment Protection Devices used for normally Grounded Appliances.

    That does not include Toasters that have a two conductor line cord.
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Heat tape for pipe lines. Unless you have a pipeline in your home there is no requirement to have one of these.
  12. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    1,792
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    this all would have been good material for the old Ed Sullivan show:rolleyes:
  13. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Ok, this will be my last post on the subject. Its clear that jw has his head too far buried up the arse of the code officials, EEs, etc to listen to the FACT that MILLIONS of people have had this problem, so I'm not arguing anymore after this post. You go ahead live in fantasy land.

    As for the rest of us, here on planet earth, here's the real deal. You need a GFCI in wet areas (laundry, bathrooms, kitchen counters, outdoors), you do NOT need them on appliance circuits (or individual outlets on a shared circuit w/ GFCIs), and SHOULD NOT put them on a refrigerator. There is NOTHING in code that says that this should be done, and those of us who have opened our eyes to look at something other than a book can definitively tell you that they WILL trip sometimes w/o good reason. Therefore, don't put them on appliances. There is nothing against code in doing this, so you can't even make a stupid argument that we're going against the code that you seem to so vehemently support. If the things were necessary on appliances, your precious code officials would have required it.

    Listen to the experience of many, a number of whom, even on just this one thread, are very accomplished and experienced professional electricians. They're all telling you that it happens. If jw can't get past a friggin book, maybe he needs to do some real work with his tools and find out what the rest of us are telling you... they will trip on occasion when using high draw (particularly highly inductive load) tools, and sometimes appliances, that are in perfect condition.

    I'm done. You guys can have it out if you want, but its clearly not going anywhere.
  14. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Please Don't make it the your last post on the subject, Because help is need on this subject all of the time.

    It is good to have knowledgeable Experienced Persons like Yourself, too help people experiencing this very issue.
  15. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Ok, I guess I should have said on this thread. I'm sure I'll post on it again, but I'm tired of this ****** match with jw when its clearly going nowhere. I'm not giving up on everyone though :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
  16. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Houston, TX
    I think that a lot of people feel the same way.

    He is very knowledgeable.

    He needs to come to Texas to buy him a new hat.

    They make them big in Texas.
  17. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Haha. Thanks for this... gave me a good laugh.

    I do agree, jw is definitely very knowledgeable. He probably knows the theory better than anyone on here (or at least has spouted it off more). The buck doesn't stop at theory though, and sometimes people just don't get that.
  18. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    4,129
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    Yes there is nothing better than "Been There Done That"

    I am an Old Fart, But still have a lot to learn.
  19. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Don and Mt I do appreciate the words of kindness. I have dedicated my life to education of the electrical trade. That is the reason why I accepted the position I have on this site as well as others.

    The one thing that I know for sure and certain is that the only way a GFCI will open is with a difference between the two conductors. There is no motor or tool on today’s market will trip one unless there is something going on between the device and the equipment that causes a difference in the current between the two conductors.

    Take a 15 amp device and load it to 30 or 40 amps and it will not open the device. I have seen 15 amp GFCI receptacles where a portable electric heater was plugged in that were all but melted but it didn’t open. There was never a difference between the two conductors.

    When a GFCI does open and we can’t explain why it opened we all tend to blame the device. Instead of blaming the device we would be a lot wiser if we found out why the device opened instead of standing and blindly blaming the device.

    The train of thought of not having any piece of equipment plugged into a GFCI protected device just goes to show how limited our knowledge truly is. Commercial kitchen equipment has been operating on GFCI protected circuits for more than 10 years so to just blindly say that a refrigerator shouldn’t be plugged into a GFCI protected receptacle just goes to show how little we know about such things.

    If it were true that these devices opened for no apparent reason how long do you think they would stay required in commercial kitchens such as your local steak house. If the commercial kitchens was losing all that food because the freezer they have for special items in quit working because a GFCI randomly tripped how long do you think the requirement would stay in the codes. There would be everyone from the owner to the health department down the back of the code making panels and the requirement would be changed quicker than you could wink.

    There is a big difference in what we think we know and what we know for sure.
  20. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Sorry that are words of kindness are not welcome.

    Where I come from , If You Dish it out then You need to be able to take it.

    We all know that you know your stuff, there is no doubt about that. You have a lot of useful knowledge.

    But , if you look at the Original Posters that come back to the forums, what is it 10 %.

    We never did hear if the Oven ever did get wired or what the outcome was. The OP may have got shocked installing a un-needed GFI.

    We never did mean to hurt your feelings.

    Other Posters or Electricians get ran off just because they feel Bullied, I do not blame them.
    We loose a lot of knowledgeable and experienced Forum users right off the bat.

    We all want to help, But the P****** contest is going to be Won but the Youngest person,
    Not the one with the most Experience...

    You are Great at what You do, And some people may be just as smart as You are,
    And we all appreciate if we have are head up are butt, And You tell us, Even when it is hard to hear you.

    Do not take it personal.

    But if You ever come to Houston, I have a friend that custom fits hats, I will buy You one.


    DonL
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
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