advice on wire gauge for built in oven

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by jono604, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,333
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I can see where a GFCI could be a problem with the HV Arc and that could make one trip.

    A proper Ground may help, But Experience tells the Truth...
  2. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    380
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    Hold on... I thought some of the electricians on here were adamant that the GFCI will NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, trip unless there is a fault in the appliance? I remember soapbox stands about how every appliance should be on a GFCI (such as a refrigerator) or the whole house will most likely blow up...

    Am I to understand that this is incorrect? Am I to understand that all of my experience that those damn things trip on their own all the time with high draw tools and appliances that are in perfect working order? I'm so confused...

    If I put a cooktop in an island, I'll put the outlet for it first w/o GFI, then put the couple island outlets after that on the same circuit with GFCI. If its just in the regular counter run, I put the cooktop on its own non-protected circuit. I know, I know, I'm pretty much dooming my family to die in a horrible accident...
  3. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    This is nothing more than bull crap. I have been installing gas cook tops on a GFCI protected circuit for more years than I care to talk about and not the first one has tripped. I have without a doubt wired more kitchens than any 10 of you have ever been in.

    Just where in this world do you all come up with this junk?
  4. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    Maybe others would like to know which GFCI you are using. Brand, etc.

    I would imagine there is a quality difference between brands.

    My kitchen is down to studs and electrical work is next.
  5. Electromen

    Electromen New Member

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    17
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    So how many thousands of homes have you wired?
  6. Electromen

    Electromen New Member

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    17
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I never connect a refrigerator to a GFCI. It's on it's own dedicated circuit.
  7. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    THANK YOU! Its good to know that some of you sparkies still have some sanity left in you. Maybe its the whole being from Pittsburgh thing :p
  8. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    I would also like to know what brand you're using.

    I'm always up to learn more/better products, but my experience with numerous GFCIs has been that they randomly trip when subjected to high current draw. Tools in particular seem to love to trip them, but not all the time, and not always the same tools, before you start claiming that the tool is defective (as others have attempted on here). My brand new, professional grade tools and my very old, tried and true tools both do this. If yours are somehow magically better than the ones I'm used to, I'll start using them. But still not on refrigerators, dishwasher/disposals, cooktops, etc.
  9. Electromen

    Electromen New Member

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    17
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I wire more homes in Westmoreland County than any other electrical contractor. The homes I wire start at $320,000 and go up. I've averaged 60 new homes per year since 1980. I also wire high end kitchens for the largest kitchen cabinet company in the County. I have two teaching degrees in the State of PA., K-12, and Vo-Techs . One is for electrical, Since I have a masters degree, I'm also certified to teach at the Universities. The electrical inspector I use has an electrical engineering degree from Penn State. We talk often and I always pass inspection. I also do commercial and industrial wiring including motor controls and overhead crane repair.
    I'm not bragging, but when someone attacks my knowledge I need to defend myself.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  10. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Very Nice Electromen®

    Sounds like You have some good experience under your belt.

    I do know that GFCIs and Appliances , tools or whatever you connect them to operate differently in different applications/situations.

    As far as I can remember GFIs in homes were made to protect people from getting hurt while working in wet or damp environments. Or a dummy that drops the hairdryer in the bathtub. Hard to protect a dummy, no mater how hard you try.

    When GFCIs are put on everything in the House, they can make more problems for the end user.

    If a appliance has a fault normally the GFCI does little to make the appliance or You any safer.
    That is why appliances have built in safety devices. Redundancy is better used in Aircraft.

    When I worked on REAL Ground Fault systems used on 3 phase Oil Drilling Systems, Where you have a Meter actually telling you the amount of Fault Current, I realized the affect of different equipment operating on the same Electrical Source.

    When you have a problem in a system that is drilling, the last thing that you want is for a breaker to trip. That is why they use Alarms, Not Automatic Ground Fault Interrupters.

    If the electrical load is far enough off it will blow the Feeder Fuse.


    Stick in there and teach us all something new.


    I am a old dog that likes to learn new tricks...


    DonL®
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Location:
    North Carolina
    I was in the field a decade plus before you. I have wired high end houses also and gave the customer what they paid for.

    For more than two decades I did multifamily dwellings where the bare minimum is all that was installed and those having gas cooking appliances found a duplex off the GFCI protected circuit supplying them. We would have between 500 to a 1000 of these under construction each and every year. I suppose that would mean that I have wired at least 12 times more kitchens than you have.

    I don’t have a masters but I do have some pretty impressive chairs that I fill at my ripe old age and have been teaching at the Community College level for more than a decade
    If I did have a master’s degree I will promise you one thing, I would never go out in the heat and cold to make a living. I would be grinding out my dollars in a conditioned space where the money was a lot better than in construction.

    Not sure what that master’s is in but if it were electrical you would know that a GFCI operates from current transformers that read the current on the hot and neutral and when there is a difference between the two of .004 to .006 amps the device opens and it opens for no other reason.
  12. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    2,540
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Dropping a hairdryer into a tub or sink full of water will not trip a GFCI in most cases. Grasping the brass and silver screw between your finger and thumb will not trip the device eather.

    Want to trip one? Have a difference between .004 and .006 amps between the two current carrying conductors will work each and every time.

    Its hard to teach one something also.
  13. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Houston, TX

    That is exactly why they don't Work Reliably.

    Trying to detect a 4 MA difference on a 15 amp Circuit is near impossible using a Cheap GFCI.

    I would like to see the measurement device that you use to read that.

    Even a $300 Dollar Fluke meter will not read that resolution when you have over 1 amp current draw on the line.

    How can you expect a cheap or even a good GFCI to do it, With reliability ?

    You may Trip it but you will have a hard time measuring it.

    Time to get the 10 Meg resistors out.

    Also, I think persons were wanting to know what brand that you use that are so good, that never trip ?

    And I would like to know if you tested them. (And not just pushing the little test Button.)
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  14. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Well, I know some people who've probably shat themselves 12 times more than you have... but I certainly wouldn't go to them for advice on how to take a dump. Experience is good, but just b/c you've done something many times doesn't necessarily mean its right.

    You claim that your GFCI installations have "never tripped." I'd like to see the documentation of the ones you installed in, lets say 1994, showing that they, in fact, have not been tripping. What a ***** claim. Just b/c a brand new one didn't trip immediately when you installed it, doesn't mean it doesn't trip.

    Edit: Sorry, I thought I was using the same word you had used in a previous comment, but I see now that yours was slightly edited.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  15. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    North Carolina
    The only way to correctly test a GFCI or arc-fault device is with the test bottom. The electronics on the inside the device does the measuring of current and is designed to open when there is a difference in current between the two conductors.

    The Flute meter we use is not designed to read such small currents they are designed to read higher currents.

    I buy whatever the supply house has that is the cheapest when doing apartments. I have been doing this for over 40 years and as a contractor have never had the problems that gets posted all over these discussion boards. Most of what is posted is someone passing along what someone else has posted and does not reflect the actual statistics of the tripping.

    I have set saw services all over NC and the east coast that are required to have GFCI protection and when someone complains about one of the GFCI devices tripping I have always 100% of the time tracked the problem to their equipment. Cords that are worn and frayed that they are too cheap to replace or want to try and repair.
    Saws, drills and such that are thrown around and lay in the bed of a truck day and night without any protection that have cords that should be against the law. Seems that every contractor out there thinks that their equipment should last forever and never trip a GFCI device when this is far from reality.

    The sooner these idiots learn that it is the GFCI device that is telling them it is time to do some replacement the sooner their problems will disappear.
  16. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    Add me to the list of folks that have seen a clicker ignitor trip a GFI. More than once in my paltry 25 year experience.
    It is not really any safer or required so WHY bother???
  17. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Location:
    North Carolina
    Being that the corporation that had these apartments built also contracted JW Electric to do the maintenance on them for a period of 5 years I suppose that I am the only documentation you can access.

    How about you show the documentation where they are tripping so badly. You should be able to prove something is happening a lot easier than someone can prove something isn’t happening.

    For those reading this post I ask a simple question, how often are you running around resetting your GFCI devices? The proof is in the pudding.

    On a side note, if there was such a problem out of any device on the market of any type there would be all kinds of reports with the Consumer Product Safety Commission such as was started about Federal Pacific panels that they shot down.
  18. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Ok, quick poll: How many people on here have called in a professional electrician when a GFCI tripped? Anyone? Anyone? Didn't think so. If you did... well, maybe there's a legitimate situation where you would do that, but it can't be too common. You push the button and move on with your life.

    How often do I reset mine? Rarely. But that's at least partially b/c I don't use them in stupid places. I don't use them in my workshop where tools would trip them often.

    The proof in the pudding? You can make wild claims that most posts online are just people restating what they've read online, but there is no foundation for such a claim. There are several people on this thread alone who are stating that they have problems with this. The electrical in my house was totally redone a few years ago, and I have tripped the GFCIs a couple times with tools. I avoid them with my tools now when I can.

    Just this week, one of my outdoor GFCIs tripped due to a contractor using a circular saw on an extension cord. The cord was a heavy duty 12 gauge wire in good condition, and the saw was a virtually brand new Milwaukee with no damage to the cord. This contractor takes very good care of his equipment, and they have in house safety crews that monitor all job sites for any safety violations. There was no reason for this to trip, yet it did.

    But, you know, I actually just heard someone say that on a forum and repeated it. Possibly while eating pudding.
  19. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    2,540
    Location:
    North Carolina
    So what you are saying is that neither you nor he ever does new construction. Every saw service out there is required to have GFCI protection for the receptacles that same contractor uses every day. I can’t help but wonder how he gets anything done running back and forth to reset the device.

    Poor ole fellow bet he is wore out every day after work.
  20. Electromen

    Electromen New Member

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    17
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Thank you Sir
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