Advice for pressure drop on new Fleck 5600

[Mike Ciccarelli]

Hey all,

Total newbie here and DIY'er but here it goes...Built a house in 2018 on well water. 4 people in the home and use about 200 gallons daily. Water just only slightly hard at 5gpg and no trace of iron. Got sick of cleaning fixtures and toilet (rust color stains) and bought a cheap AO Smith 35k grain softener at lowes and installed between pressure tank and PEX manifold. I noticed a pressure drop in upstairs showers . Total water flow rate of well was rated at 15gpm when we built the home. 1HP well pump connected to tank that is set at 60/40. I did not measure the pressure after AO smith softener was installed but it was noticeably lower...Especially in the upastairs fiixtures...I'm assuming because of the longer run of the pipes. When I turn the bypass valve on the pressure would come back to normal. I decided that I would return this unit (since I've now read they are mostly junk with a water flow rate of 7.5gpm) and are typically throw away units.

I've since decided to go with overkill and buy the Fleck 5600 48k grain to increase the water flow rate (I believe it was rated at 12 - 20 gpm) and future proof my system as the kids grow. I set my softener setting to 30,000 grain to save on salt costs. To my dismay, water pressure drops are still noticeable in upstairs showers. It is definitely not as strong as if I have valve set to bypass.

My question is this...are pressure drops to be expected with installing any water softener system? My system is set up as.... well - pressure tank - water filter (new one installed just a few days ago) - water softener - PEX manifold. All connections are 3/4 inch PEX and the water lines running out of manifold are 1/2 inch PEX to fixtures.

I know I am spoiled with a 15 GPM output from my well but now that I've gotten used to great pressure out of my shower heads...its hard to go back.

Would increasing the pipe size running to and from softener 3/4 to an 1 inch help? The yoke included in the Fleck I bought is 1 inch male so I am wondering if the 3/4 flex line would be restricting necessary flow to the resin bed? thus impacting the water pressure to the home? I could easily change this.

Any help is greatly appreciated and I apologize for any newbie lingo I may have used. Plumping is definitely not my cup of tea.

 

[Reach4]

The 5600SXT was not the best valve for minimizing pressure drop. At 20 gpm, it it is speced at 15psi pressure drop, and that is just the valve. There are connections and the path trough the distributor tube and bottom basket that will add. Not too bad, but if you really were going to have 15 gpm flows for real, then there are valves made for even lower pressure drops with flow.

3/4 inch pex is also not a good choice for 15 gpm flow either.

The good news is that 4 bath houses seldom put more than about 7 gpm through the softener. If you are installing the 5600sxt, I would go to the 1 inch pex until at least the tee for the water heater. I would consider adding tees with boiler drain valves that could let you measure pressure on both sides of the softener during flow (those can mount a garden hose thread (GHT) pressure gauge). Also it is especially good to have pressure gauges before and after cartridge filters. That can be useful in knowing when to change cartridges, and can let you see what cartridge to not buy again. The filters are probably going to be more pressure drop than the softener.

Watch the connector lines to the softener. Many connector lines are undersized ID.

I am not a pro.

 

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[Mike Ciccarelli]

The 5600SXT was not the best valve for minimizing pressure drop. At 20 gpm, it it is speced at 15psi pressure drop, and that is just the valve. There are connections and the path trough the distributor tube and bottom basket that will add. Not too bad, but if you really were going to have 15 gpm flows for real, then there are valves made for even lower pressure drops with flow.

3/4 inch pex is also not a good choice for 15 gpm flow either.

The good news is that 4 bath houses seldom put more than about 7 gpm through the softener. If you are installing the 5600sxt, I would go to the 1 inch pex until at least the tee for the water heater. I would consider adding tees with boiler drain valves that could let you measure pressure on both sides of the softener during flow (those can mount a garden hose thread (GHT) pressure gauge). Also it is especially good to have pressure gauges before and after cartridge filters. That can be useful in knowing when to change cartridges, and can let you see what cartridge to not buy again. The filters are probably going to be more pressure drop than the softener.

Watch the connector lines to the softener. Many connector lines are undersized ID.

I am not a pro.

Thank you for the advice!
Would increase water pressure on the tank from 40/60 to say 50/70 help at all? Or just changing out the 3/4 inch PEX to 1 inch help the most. Also should I be looking at another valve?

 

[Bannerman]

Any softener or filter system will require water to flow through a tank of media so there will be some amount of flow restriction that will naturally occur. For typical water demands, the restriction will usually be low enough to not be an issue or be even noticeable.

You mention less pressure while showering. Is that the only activity consuming water when the issue is noticed? A typical single shower head will use less than 3 gpm so use of a 1.5 ft3 softener will not normally result in a flow issue when satisfying that demand. Are there multiple shower heads or is it a large shower head that requires a more signifucant flow rate, or could there be other fixtures or appliances also consuming water while the shower is being used?

You said there is a filter of some sort prior to the softener. Describe that filter.

It is definitely not as strong as if I have valve set to bypass.

Is the bypass connected directly to the softener only, or is the bypass separate from the softener? Does the same bypass also bypass the water filter?

As mentioned, flexible connection lines will often limit flow. If the connection lines are the cause of the restriction, with a bypass connected directly to the softener, the restriction will usually remain when in the bypass position since flow will remain through the flex lines to the bypass valve and then out to fixtures. When the bypass is separate from the softener, then water flow will no longer be through the flex lines.

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

The 5600SXT was not the best valve for minimizing pressure drop. At 20 gpm, it it is speced at 15psi pressure drop, and that is just the valve. There are connections and the path trough the distributor tube and bottom basket that will add. Not too bad, but if you really were going to have 15 gpm flows for real, then there are valves made for even lower pressure drops with flow.

3/4 inch pex is also not a good choice for 15 gpm flow either.

The good news is that 4 bath houses seldom put more than about 7 gpm through the softener. If you are installing the 5600sxt, I would go to the 1 inch pex until at least the tee for the water heater. I would consider adding tees with boiler drain valves that could let you measure pressure on both sides of the softener during flow (those can mount a garden hose thread (GHT) pressure gauge). Also it is especially good to have pressure gauges before and after cartridge filters. That can be useful in knowing when to change cartridges, and can let you see what cartridge to not buy again. The filters are probably going to be more pressure drop than the softener.

Watch the connector lines to the softener. Many connector lines are undersized ID.

I am not a pro.

Also what is an undersized ID? The connector line I used are corrugated flex line...1 inch fnpt to 3/4 inch sharkbite. This was the only 1 inch to 3/4 inch line I could find at lowes. It says its for water heaters but thought I would try. Could this be the issue? If so what would you recommend?

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

Any softener or filter system will require water to flow through a tank of media so there will be some amount of flow restriction that will naturally occur. For typical water demands, the restriction will usually be low enough to not be an issue or be even noticeable.

You mention less pressure while showering. Is that the only activity consuming water when the issue is noticed? A typical single shower head will use less than 3 gpm so use of a 1.5 ft3 softener will not normally result in a flow issue when satisfying that demand. Are there multiple shower heads or is it a large shower head that requires a more signifucant flow rate, or could there be other fixtures or appliances also consuming water while the shower is being used?

You said there is a filter of some sort prior to the softener. Describe that filter.

Is the bypass connected directly to the softener only, or is the bypass separate from the softener? Does the same bypass also bypass the water filter?

As mentioned, flexible connection lines will often limit flow. If the connection lines are the cause of the restriction, with a bypass connected directly to the softener, the restriction will usually remain when in the bypass position since flow will remain through the flex lines to the bypass valve and then out to fixtures. When the bypass is separate from the softener, then water flow will no longer be through the flex lines.

I was heading there with my train of thought but wasn't 100% sure. The bypass valve is stock that came with the Fleck. It connects to the Valve at the top of the tank...
https://www.amazon.com/AFWFilters-F...ocphy=9006810&hvtargid=pla-718066536192&psc=1
I wasn't sure since the pressure spikes back up when both valves are set in the bypass position which leads me to believe it would not be the flex lines. I might try turning the water filter to bypass tonight and watching pressure to see what it does.

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

Also the pressure drop is not as noticeable if the shower head is the only faucet with water pressure running through it. Part of the problem could be that I took off water flow restrictors to all faucets once moving into the home. I do enjoy high water pressure and did not like the idea of water flow being restricted. I have a pretty large shower head with the water flow restrictor removed. So water pressure does drop noticeably with other faucets on but not so much when all faucets/appliances closed.

 

[Reach4]

I might try turning the water filter to bypass tonight and watching pressure to see what it does.

How do you measure this pressure, or pressure drop. It has to include a large flow. Using your calibrated shower force measure?

Maybe put a pressure gauge on a laundry tap or WH drain, open a particular load, such as a tub spout full blast, and read the pressure through a pump cycle.

Would increase water pressure on the tank from 40/60 to say 50/70 help at all?

Good chance, but you could hold that since it can be done after construction.

Or just changing out the 3/4 inch PEX to 1 inch help the most. Also should I be looking at another valve?

Some PEX fittings are smaller ID than others. From most clearance to least, F1960 expansion, crimp brass, and crimp plastic. How much effect? I don't know.

The Falcon Stainless ones are good.

 

[Bannerman]

With removing the flow restrictors, you are attempting to flow more water than designed for that fixture or shower head. Without a restrictor, each fixture is now flowing a greater quantity of water which will have a larger impact on the remaining system pressure available to other fixtures being utilized at the same time.

With the shower head restrictor removed, the shower head's nozzles will now limit the flow rate, so the flow results will be more susceptible to pressure fluctuations occuring prior to the shower head including from your well setup itself. The 40-60 pressure switch settings (or 50-70) will result in a 20 psi variation even while only one fixture (shower) is running.

With the shower restrictor limiting the flow rate, the shower head nozzles will receive a more consistent quantity of water, even while there maybe some reasonable amount of pressure variance before the restrictor.

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

How do you measure this pressure, or pressure drop. It has to include a large flow. Using your calibrated shower force measure?

Maybe put a pressure gauge on a laundry tap or WH drain, open a particular load, such as a tub spout full blast, and read the pressure through a pump cycle.


Good chance, but you could hold that since it can be done after construction.
Some PEX fittings are smaller ID than others. From most clearance to least, F1960 expansion, crimp brass, and crimp plastic. How much effect? I don't know.

The Falcon Stainless ones are good.

I am simplying measuring it by "feel" which I know is not very helpful but I can definately notice a minor drop when shower head is only faucet on and a very noticeable drop when 1-2 sinks or tub is on. I may just have to pick up a pressure gauge to measure the drop so the exact drop can be gauged.

The filter is some cheap filter I bought at a local water supply store. It was installed when home was built and pressure was not an issue since. Only after softener was put on.

I may try upping the tank pressure to 50/70 to see if that helps but everything I read advises not going above 60psi. I would hate to replace all 3/4 with 1 inch and it not make much difference. I'm fairly confident it is not the water connectors since the bypass pressure is good (and connectors run through the bypass.

 

[Reach4]

If the cycling or other pressure change is bothersome, you could could maybe install a Dole valve in the line to the showerhead(s). Not a common thing to do, but flow controls try to limit the gpm, and thereby keep the flow fairly constant. They will have a little pressure drop, even when the pressure is at minimum. It's like a current regulator in electronics.

 

[boober]

Near noob here, but couldn't he just crank the pressure up to 70/50? Also, would a csv help to keep the pressure constant? Follow up question... What water softener has the lowest pressure drop?

 

[LLigetfa]

Increasing the pressure might or might not help depending on the pump dead head pressure. Pumps run on a curve so higher pressure means less GPM. If the pump cannot meet demand, the pressure will drop.

A CSV will smooth out the up and down cycle.

There are commercial water softeners that take 3 inch pipe so your question is too open ended.

 

[Reach4]

The ones for 1.25 inch pipe plumbing, such as the Fleck 5812, would have a little less drop than the ones made made for 1 inch, such as Fleck 5810. For a house, you would probably be unlikely to notice the difference. The Fleck 5800 and 5600 are sized primarily for 3/4 inch pipe.

If drop is a concern, don't opt for the fine resin.

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

After some research I think I settled on a CSV1A. I tried bypassing the filter (only collecting about a teaspoon of sediment every 6 months) and although that helped a little, I still have noticeable drops in pressure while showering. After more investigation it seems that the well drillers put a more than adequate pump (1HP) combined with too small of a pressure tank (20 gallons that will fill the 5 gallon drawdown in about 15 seconds) which is leading to a lot of cycling for that pump.

Do you folks think that there would be too much back pressure with the CSV and 1HP pump. Submersible pump is at about 180 feet and generating about 15 gpm by my calculations. well pipe is 200psi @73 degrees poly pipe. My initial thought is I would be OK since would be lower closer to the pump and I might gain 50 or so PSI at the lower ground temperature.

 

[Reach4]

After some research I think I settled on a CSV1A. I tried bypassing the filter (only collecting about a teaspoon of sediment every 6 months) and although that helped a little, I still have noticeable drops in pressure while showering. After more investigation it seems that the well drillers put a more than adequate pump (1HP) combined with too small of a pressure tank (20 gallons that will fill the 5 gallon drawdown in about 15 seconds) which is leading to a lot of cycling for that pump.

In characterizing the pump, you want not only the HP, but the gpm rating of the pump.

Your pressure drop to the shower could be a problem with piping. Put a garden-hose-thread pressure gauge on the drain line of the WH to see what happens to that pressure while you shower. Also check the pressure gauge at the tank. See what the difference is. You could also check the water pressure on the cold line of the laundry taps for more info.

You could look at a gauge while the shower is running, or record the gauge by starting a movie of the gauge, and taking a shower.

 

[Mike Ciccarelli]

Pump is about 15 gpm. Shower pressure is great when cut out pressure of 60psi is reached but when it is gets closer to the 40psi cut in I can really notice the difference. Thought CSV would help with this since I could set it at a 55ish constant psi and keep pump running to limit cycling and stabilize pressure but didn't know if back pressure built from CSV would be too much for 200 poly pipe

 

[Reach4]

Pump is about 15 gpm. Shower pressure is great when cut out pressure of 60psi is reached but when it is gets closer to the 40psi cut in I can really notice the difference. Thought CSV would help with this since I could set it at a 55ish constant psi and keep pump running to limit cycling and stabilize pressure but didn't know if back pressure built from CSV would be too much for 200 poly pipe

More likely you have a 10 gpm pump. It could be putting out 12 or even 15 gpm due to your static water level being fairly high. It could be putting out 10 gpm, but your drawdown is less than you think. Or a little of both.

Consider asking your pump installer what pump is in there. He may have put a sticker on your pressure tank. That might have the gpm, or at least the phone number. Anyway, it looks to me that even a 10 gpm 1 hp pump will not be to much 200 psi poly, even deadheaded. A 12 or 15 gpm 1 hp pump would generate less pressure than the 10 gpm.

So that CSV looks like an easy install before your existing pressure tank.

 

[Bannerman]

will fill the 5 gallon drawdown in about 15 seconds

This seems to suggest that the pump is delivering 20 gpm with 40/60 psi back pressure.

Whether your pump is capable of 15 or 20 gpm, the capacity of the pump does not appear to be the issue. The poly pipe from the pump to the pressure tank is likely 1" or larger, but since the home plumbing from the pressure tank onward is 3/4" Pex, then the home plumbing will flow at a lesser rate compared to the feed line from the well. Any filter or softener will add some additional flow restriction through a cartridge or media.

Since the problem apparently only exists when there is multiple faucets/appliances flowing at the same time, then whatever flow rate supported by the 3/4" Pex will be divided between each operating fixture.

Removal of each fixture's flow restrictor will compound the problem since each fixture will flow a greater amount of water resulting in greater pressure drop for each than would occur when that fixture's flow restrictor is in place.

As a simple example, if we assume the 3/4" Pex is capable of 10 gpm, then a fixture capable of flowing 10 gpm located on a lower level, will consume 100% of capacity, leaving no water to flow to other fixtures located on upper levels. If the original installed flow restrictor limits the lower fixture to 6 gpm, then there would be 4 gpm capacity available for upper level fixtures.

Recommend reinstalling the flow restrictor for each fixture to restore the original flow rate intended by the fixture manufacturer.

 

[LLigetfa]

Submersible pump is at about 180 feet

It's not the depth of the pump, it is the depth to the water surface that matters in calculations.