4 Year Old Submersible Pump replacement

[SETexas]

Hello All. Looks like I found the right site to some questions I have about my well pump.
I'm a homeowner and not by any mean a plumber or well guy.

Here's my situation.
I have a 4 year old well that the pump just went out. It is a Grundfos 3/4hp Pump
15SQ/SQE07B-180 3" submersible pump with a pressure tank. The well is about 320' deep and the pump is located 100' down below grade. The incoming line to the tank has a check valve with a schrader valve and a pressure switch. I did replace the schrader valve last year with a regular one you would use on a tire valve stem. The tank has, what I think is a AVC on the side with a pressure gauge.
I called in the well guy that installed the well to check it out. He said he had to pull it. Pulled the pump and the pump motor was bad. He replaced the pump and all is good, except I can't afford to do this every 4 years. I did notice he took the check valve out of the new pump before installing it. He said it was for the pump to push air back in to the tank each cycle. I don't know?
Now, I am just wondering if I did something to shorten the life of my pump? I do water the yard every now and again but normal 3 bed 2 1/2 bath house usage other than that.
The pump does cycle every few minutes when I water the lawn.
Do I have too much pump for my needs? Does it cycle too much?
When it does come on I get a hissing noise from that AVC and a slight hammer in the line to the tank and a big gurgle in tank.
I just don't know what to think.
I don't like these $ bombs dropped on me.
I'll try and include a drawing of what I got.

 

[LLigetfa]

You say the pump is 100 feet down but you don't say how far down to the water. That in part determines how much pump you need. If the wrong type of shraeder valve were used, there is a possibility of a vacuum forming, not letting in air and water hammer forming if the water level is low. The rule of thumb is a check valve every 30 feet of vertical height above the table to prevent vacuum formed hammering.

How much tank you need is determined by how often the pump cycles. It sounds like you are cycling the pump to death. You might want to consider changing to a bladder tank and a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

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[Texas Wellman]

Classic case of excessive cycling. When you water the lawn put out as many sprinklers as you can so that the pump never shuts off.

I'm not sure what you mean by "he removed the check valve". The pump has to have a check valve. What you're describing is an air-maker or bleeder system, which uses a bleeding device in the top 20' of pipe with a snifter and air-release. That gurgling sound is probably normal. I'm not a huge fan of the bleeder systems for various reasons but they do work.

You should consider getting a cycle reducing valve like the one valveman sells or at least try to water enough to keep your pump running steady.

I did notice he took the check valve out of the new pump before installing it. He said it was for the pump to push air back in to the tank each cycle. I don't know?
Now, I am just wondering if I did something to shorten the life of my pump?

I do water the yard every now and again but normal 3 bed 2 1/2 bath house usage other than that.
The pump does cycle every few minutes when I water the lawn. Do I have too much pump for my needs? Does it cycle too much?
When it does come on I get a hissing noise from that AVC and a slight hammer in the line to the tank and a big gurgle in tank.
I just don't know what to think.
I don't like these $ bombs dropped on me.
I'll try and include a drawing of what I got.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Where did you come up with this? There should only be one check valve in the whole system, right at the pump, unless you have a bleeder system and then you have one more before the tank.

Around here the water levels vary from 30'-80'. Depends on location.

You say the pump is 100 feet down but you don't say how far down to the water. That in part determines how much pump you need. If the wrong type of shraeder valve were used, there is a possibility of a vacuum forming, not letting in air and water hammer forming if the water level is low. The rule of thumb is a check valve every 30 feet of vertical height above the table to prevent vacuum formed hammering.

How much tank you need is determined by how often the pump cycles. It sounds like you are cycling the pump to death. You might want to consider changing to a bladder tank and a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[SETexas]

The water level is about 40' down, so that makes the pump sitting about 60' below water level. I looked at the water mark on the discharge line when we pulled it out.

How do I know what kind of schrader valve I need? Do you think I put the wrong one in? If so, what kind is needed?

I looked at the CSV's and that looks like it would solve the cycle problems, but would it work with the system I have, with only one check valve and all? If so what size I need is beyond me.

He removed the factory check out of the top of the pump and the only one I have is right before the tank. It has the pressure switch and schrader valve.

 

[LLigetfa]

Not all shrader valves are created equal. If the spring is too strong or the geometry wrong, it might not let in air when a vacuum forms.

Removal of the check valve in the pump can cause the pump to spin backwards which is generally discouraged. Normally a bleeder valve is used instead.

The topic of multiple check valves has people lined up on both sides of the debate. There is a sticky on the subject at the top of the forum.

I'm not a fan of snifter/bleeder systems and feel that the water line should stay pressurized all the way to the pump. If you put a check valve at the tank and the one at the pump fails, the weight of the water can create a vacuum that can water hammer. Of course that depends on the height of the water table.

 

[LLigetfa]

When I was a child, I removed the valve depresser from my bicycle pump so that I wouldn't lose air while I was unscrewing it. It still worked for 90% of inner tube valves as the air pressure would depress the shrader valve. On some it took a lot more effort to get air into the tube. A few didn't work at all.

The near vacuum that forms when a column of water falls creates a pressure differential of less than 15 PSI. The more PSI it takes, the less air gets in. If there is not enough air, the water hammer can be damaging.

 

[SETexas]

The schrader valve is letting in some air, not sure if it is enough though. I can hear and feel it. I replaced it because it was blowing water until the line came to full pressure then closed off.

Think Ill try and get one of those CSV's from valveman and new schrader from the well place. AVC also.

 

[Ballvalve]

Your well guy is a real nut case if he took out the pumps check valve. Disaster.

He should have added a bleeder valve a few feet down the well, or even above ground in warmer climates.

This mentally challenged well guy is blowing about 5 times more air into your tank than you need.

 

[SETexas]

Thanks Guys for all the help ya’ll have given me!

I ordered me a CSV1Z tonight and tomorrow going to see about finding a bleeder valve.
Today before I went to work a Grundfos rep called me and I explained what was going on and he sounded pretty concerned about the installer removing the check valve. He said he is going to stop by for a visit and looksee.
Think I'll see about getting that check put back in when I pull the line to install the bleeder valve.

Does the bleeder valve go in a T in the feed line or is it a inline valve? Is there a certain brand or kind that would be best for this situation? Any recommendations?

 

[LLigetfa]

Is there a certain brand or kind that would be best for this situation? Any recommendations?

I'm sure valveman or another pumpman familiar with CSVs will answer that. Because of the higher pressure involved, the choice of bleeder is crucial.

 

[Valveman]

Because of the back pressure from the CSV, you need a 3/4" brass bleeder, installed on a tee about 5' down the well. Here is a link that has those bleeders and also the Schrader you are looking for.

http://www.wellpro.com/catalog/TankAccessories.pdf

 

[SETexas]

Well, I Got my CSV1Z installed yesterday and it works great. Easy to install and easy to set. Got it set at 60 psi with my pressure switch set at 47-67 psi.
Thanks for all the help!!
I’m going to install my bleeder and check valve next week when I get some help to pull the pump.

 

[Ballvalve]

You can put the bleeder above ground, but you need to get a check valve back in near the pump outlet.

 

[SETexas]

Well Guys, I have another problem. The Pressure Releif Valve is opening on top of the well head when the pump is running and tank pressure is about 55psi and up. I changed it out and the new PRV is doing the same thing. Not sure whats going on.

 

[SETexas]

I moved the pressure relief valve downstream of CSV right after tank and safety not lifting anymore. I also checked with second pressure gauge and the one running the pressure switch was correct.

 

[Valveman]

The pressure relief needs to be after the CSV.

 

[SETexas]

Thanks valveman, It was my fault. I didn't think about the PRV placement. After looking at the diagram on the instructions, I see where it had it after the CSV. Everything good.
That CSV works great.