Kohler San Raphael weak flush

[Aviator]

I bought this toilet years ago for a significant amount of money at the time. It is one piece and was purchased for looks more than anything else. My issue with it is, it's had a weak flush from day one, very often requiring two flushes to clear the bowl. I have reasonable water pressure and used a full flow 1/2" valve.
I was wondering if there is anything that I can do to improve the flush performance of this toilet? One thing I was wondering, I used a 4" drain pipe from the flange the toilet is mounted to. I did that to try to eliminate clog issues. Could that cause a weak flush? I am thinking maybe a 3" waste pipe would create a stronger vacuum to help evacuate the bowl.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[hj]

all the "flush pressure" is generated by the tank so your water pressure or pipe size is irrelevant. IS this a gravity or pressure assisted toilet? The 4" pipe size also has no effect on the flushing performance.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

If your toilet has a low tank, that will provide very little head pressure for the flush.
The San Raphael has come in many configerations over the years. Without a picture of the inside of the tank, it would be hard to guess. The drain is not the problem.

 

[Reach4]

One thing I was wondering, I used a 4" drain pipe from the flange the toilet is mounted to. I did that to try to eliminate clog issues. Could that cause a weak flush? I am thinking maybe a 3" waste pipe would create a stronger vacuum to help evacuate the bowl.

That is not the problem.

 

[Aviator]

all the "flush pressure" is generated by the tank so your water pressure or pipe size is irrelevant. IS this a gravity or pressure assisted toilet? The 4" pipe size also has no effect on the flushing performance.

It is a gravity toilet, probably the first issue of the San Raphael. I assumed the pipe size was relevant since the installation instructions required the use of the full flow valve.

 

[hj]

The water in the tank does the actual flushing, the fill valve sends water to the rim holes to wash the sides of the bowl during the flush. IF someone has changed the fill valve, and used the wrong one to save water, the bowl will not refill properly and that will cause a poor flush. Besides "looks" the San Raphael toilet CANNOT overflow if it gets clogged, which is why they, and others like them, were the ideal toilets for an upstairs bathroom.

 

[Aviator]

I don't think the fill valve is the issue as this toilet has had a weak flush since new. It has required two flushes most of the time to clear the bowl.
I have had several clogs over the years and didn't know that it won't overflow. Good to know. I really like the looks and would hate to get rid of it, but the terrible flush and wasted water is really getting to me. It takes an already obsolete 3.5 gallon flush to 7 gallons.
I was actually hoping that someone would have said, oh yeah there's a mod you can do to make it flush to the next county. It only cost $20 and can be done in 10 minutes. Just dreaming.
Thanks for the replies

 

[hj]

quote; I was actually hoping that someone would have said, oh yeah there's a mod you can do to make it flush to the next county. It only cost $20 and can be done in 10 minutes

There may be such a thing, but I would have to be there and see the toilet flushing, therefore it would cost more than $20, even if it did just take 10 minutes.

 

[Wallijonn]

... it's had a weak flush from day one, very often requiring two flushes to clear the bowl.

If it takes two flushes - get rid of it.

I had two Briggs 3.5gpf toilets that took two flushes, sometimes three, to clear the bowl. If I urinated 8 times a day (weekends) and flushed every time then I would end up using 35g per day. So I tried not to flush so often. Which caused bacteria to form and caused brown ring spots in the toilet. So I added bleach. No good. Bleach tablets. No good. Scrub, scrub, scrub, smell, smell, smell.

So I installed two Drakes, a 1.28gpf and a 1.6gpf ADA. If I just use the 1.6g, I use 14.4g per day. If I use just the 1.28g, I use 11.52g. That is a lot better than 35g per day.

Yes, you spent a lot of money on it. But it's never been good from day 1. Get rid of it, cut your losses, start conserving water and a few bucks off of your monthly water bill. The monthly bill savings will never pay for the toilet. Figure about a 10 year ROI. But your life will be so much better - you can worry about other things in your life than a bad toilet. (If you love flushing the toilet, then you will probably start the day with a smile.) If money is tight, try the Toto Entrada at about $200.

 

[Mark DeB]

Besides "looks" the San Raphael toilet CANNOT overflow if it gets clogged, which is why they, and others like them, were the ideal toilets for an upstairs bathroom.

I was intrigued to see this about the San Raphael not overflowing. We are in the market for a replacement toilet and were considering the San Raphael (K-3722-0), but were put off by the negative reviews associated with that name. We have been bedeviled by clogs and overflows probably caused by stuffing our old toilet with too much paper; the worst overflows involved a flapper that did not close so the water ran constantly. Does the San Raphael generally have poor performance, or is it just a few people who have had problems because of their specific conditions? We need a low profile toilet to fit in our space, and now I am also thinking of the Toto Eco Supreme, Supreme II, and Carolina II, but I am not sure of the differences (beyond slight differences in height). But idea that the San Raphael "CANNOT overflow" sounds pretty good! We live in an apt. building in NYC. Thanks in advance for any information or advice.

Mark

 

[Terry]

Hi Mark,
The current crop of Kohler does not have overflow protection. We're talking ancient history month here.
The K-3722 looks to be better than perhaps what you have had. They have made improvements.

The TOTO models mentioned would be good too. I've sold and installed all of those.

 

[Mark DeB]

Hi Terry, Many thanks for your reply! Best, Mark

 

[WJcandee]

Okay, Mark, here it is.

The Supreme is a "lowboy" version of the world-famous Ultramax. The Ultramax is a one-piece toilet with an excellent flush. One-piece means that the tank and toilet are molded as one unit, rather than having a separate tank and bowl.

The lower height of the "tank" part of the one-piece Supreme toilet means that the flush has a little less oomph, but not by much. And in a NYC apartment, it's a nice low flat-ish (not flat) surface to pile stuff on!!

The Eco-Supreme is the 1.28 gallon-per-flush version of the original Supreme, which had a GMax flush. This was Toto's first, famous, effective flush. The design of the trapway, along with the siphon jet at the bottom of the bowl, sucks a lot of waste out of the bowl with very little water. The 1.28 and 1.6 gallon-per-flush are essentially equally as effective these days; the 1.6 version has a bowl that holds a little more water for...um...covering stuff up (the "water spot" is larger, in other words, but not by much). The GMax/EMax Supreme is a very good toilet. The only beef people have, if it's a beef, is that because Toto focused on having a great flush, there is a little less bowl wash than their newer versions.

The Supreme II is a version of the Supreme that uses the Double-Cyclone flush. The trapway and siphon jet design are similar, so the flush is effective, but in the Double-Cyclone, Toto sends the bowl-rinse water out of two horizontal jets at the top of the bowl (rather than through little downward-facing pinholes at the top of the bowl). The water swirls around ("cyclone") the bowl before going out the bottom, giving a little better bowl wash than the EMax.

The Supreme is a regular height bowl. The Supreme II and the Carolina II are "comfort height" bowls: a little taller, which is easier on the knees of a lot of people.

Finally, the Carolina II is a "skirted" version of the Supreme II. It accommodates Toto's Unifit Adapter, which can be had in 10" and 14" versions as well as the 12" version that it comes with. This lets you get the same distance from the wall for the toilet, regardless of whether the toilet flange centerline is placed at a standard 12" or the less-common 10" or 14" distance from the finished wall. The "skirted" toilet also hides the outline of the trapway and some find it easier to clean.

We have both types and I am indifferent between the two. We got the skirted because we had a 10" rough-in, and the toilet (a Carlyle II, skirted version of the Ultramax II) works very well. I also have both double-cyclone and G-Max flushes at home, and the Double-Cyclone is cool and performs as advertised, but the basic GMax works perfectly well.

The Supreme II and the Carolina II also come with CEFIONTECT as standard equipment. This is a nanotechnology-designed coating that makes the rinse a little more effective; stuff doesn't stick to it as much.

So there ya go!

 

[Mark DeB]

Hi wjcandee, Thanks, I really appreciate your detailed and informative response. Very helpful. This forum is great! Best, Mark