Whole house water filter: Concerned about backwash from sewage

[Cacher_Chick]

@ cacher_chick:

While what you stated is true, as the discharge is under water system pressure, the risk of splattering is high. As the closet is enclosed by drywall and is located on the main floor and I expect a floor drain is not close by, the damage realized through misdirected water would most likely cause major damage. The price of an appropriate air-gap fitting would be a cheap method to ensure the drain water, all flows to where it is intended.

I have done a couple softener drains using a 2" diameter standpipe, 36" long, trapped and vented. I adapt the end of the softener hose to 3/4" pipe to give it something rigid to mount on a standoff above the standpipe.
The water does not come out of the softener discharge like a fire-hose, it is more like that of a lavatory faucet. No problem with splashing in my experience.

I'm sure your way is fine too, I just have not found any need for a specialized fitting.

 

[ENIGMA-2]

Securing the hose to any functional mounting so that the end is secured 1-2" above the opening of the standpipe fulfills the requirement without having to purchase any specifically designed air gap fitting.

Note that the minimum height of the standpipe should be 18"

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ENIGMA-2]

Double post

 

[montisqu]

Got another question. How much salt (solar) should I put in the softener? I talked to aquat support and they said to fill the brine tank about 3/4 full.

I emptied a 40lb bag and it's not even 1/4 full!! It would take about 4-5 bags just to get it 3/4 full.......is this correct?

Also, while I was putting the solar salt...some of it spilled on the floor of the closet. I cannot get it out because the filters are blocking the way......is it OK to leave it there?

 

[Reach4]

Got another question. How much salt (solar) should I put in the softener? I talked to aquat support and they said to fill the brine tank about 3/4 full.

I emptied a 40lb bag and it's not even 1/4 full!! It would take about 4-5 bags just to get it 3/4 full.......is this correct?

There are different opinions. Everybody would agree, I think, that there should usually be some salt up to or above the top of the water. I put in less salt than most people. I like to tilt my salt to let some water show at the edge, because I don't have an overflow valve in a tube in my brine tank to let me check water level. Most people would put half to 3/4 full to not have to add salt so often. No need to put that much in, unless you want to save the time and effort of checking more often.

If you are going to clean out your brine tank, let the salt level drop a lot before doing that. No need throwing away a lot of salt, plus the salt is heavy for tipping to clean. Some people recommend cleaning annually. That is overboard for some people. It depends on how much salt you use and what kind of salt you use I think, as to how long is appropriate. If you use a little pellet salt, you might go 10 or more years in my non-pro opinion. If you use solar salt, maybe half as long, I am guessing. I don't know what a good gauge would be. I am thinking if the softener is working and it doesn't look dirty when you let the salt supply drop, I would wait. On the other hand, maybe I am over-optimistic. I think a professional needs to give a more conservative estimate, because he might be blamed if the recommended interval was too short.

I am thinking that the recommendation interval should maybe in in pounds of salt used rather than time.

Also, while I was putting the solar salt...some of it spilled on the floor of the closet. I cannot get it out because the filters are blocking the way......is it OK to leave it there?

It is OK I think. Maybe the crevice tool on the vacuum cleaner would get in there, or you could suck via a piece of pipe with the vacuum.

 

[ditttohead]

Doing commercial/industrial/residential systems for nearly 30 years, we fill them and then snow cone them, shake the tank, and then put some more in. We also use larger than normal brine tanks. Modern softeners do not need a lot of maintenance and running out of salt is a common problem. My system at my house only needs to be filled every 12-16 months depending on how much I yell at my daughters to get out of the shower.

 

[Mikey]

...I yell at my daughters to get out of the shower

Put a timer on the hot water line.

 

[ditttohead]

Put a timer on the hot water line.

I have a Rinnai tankless with the remote control. I have set it to 20 gallons in the past so it shuts the hot water off. I also set the tankless heater to 115 degrees so they use only hot water so the actual available water is only 20 gallons. Works great and the control is in my room.

 

[Mikey]

I should have known you'd be way ahead of me .

 

[ENIGMA-2]

Some people recommend cleaning annually. That is overboard for some people. It depends on how much salt you use and what kind of salt you use I think, as to how long is appropriate. If you use a little pellet salt, you might go 10 or more years in my non-pro opinion.

My Kenmore is 10 years old last December & salt tank is still clean. I use Diamond Sun Gems with Red Out.

 

[Reach4]

http://www.diamondcrystalsalt.com/Water-Softening/FAQs/FAQs.aspx says in part

• Should I clean out my brine tank?

Unless the salt product being used is high in water-insoluble matter, or there is a serious malfunction of some sort (e.g. bridging), it is usually not necessary to clean out the brine tank. Some individuals choose to allow all of the salt to dissolve in their softener unit once per year so it can be visually inspected to insure no build-up has occurred. If there is a build-up, it should be cleaned out to prevent softener malfunction.​

• Should I use pellets or solar salt?

Since solar salt contains slightly more water insoluble matter than (evaporated salt) pellets, consideration should be given to salt usage, softener cleanout frequency and softener design. If salt usage is light one could probably use the products interchangeably. If salt usage is heavy, insoluble will build up faster when using solar salt, and the need to more frequently clean the brine tank/reservoir will be increased. Brine tank cleanout can be a messy task. Check with your softener manufacturer for specific recommendations.​

 

[montisqu]

I had the plumber come in today and asked him about the air gap. He said the standpipe is connected to the laundry room drain line/trap and the standpipe itself is the airgap. He said that the drain tubes from the filter/softener only go 1 inch into the standpipe so that in itself is an air gap and I don't need to worry.

Does this sound correct? Also, in the laundry room...the washing machine drain tube is plugged into the drain line directly...how come it doesn't need an air gap?

 

[Reach4]

Does this sound correct?

"Correct"? as measured by what? Plumbing codes? If so, then no...

Any comments on https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-for-softeners-and-backwashing-filters.64755/ ?

Also, in the laundry room...the washing machine drain tube is plugged into the drain line directly...how come it doesn't need an air gap?

If I understood the answers I got when I asked that question, the washer water supply has its own air gaps as it fills the tub.

 

[ENIGMA-2]

No. He's not correct. I have ICC residential and commercial plumbing certification and I'm telling you he's dead wrong. (Also do plans review for locations using the UPC).

The 1"requirement is required at every point where potable water exits the plumbing system. A softener "should" be gapped 1" from the overflow point of the drain/waste or sewer. As others have stated, in case of a blockage, the drains will backup and contaminated water will come into physical contact with potable water.

There are exceptions, your hose Bob has an integral vacuum breaker, a dishwasher either has a high loop or air gap, your washing machine was an integral air gap in the fill side, etc.

All-in-all there's little danger as it would be difficult for the resin bed becoming contaminated, but the codes are written to maintain safety under all conditions. It's best to use a made air gap, just for safety. The use of a sanitary tee (or vent tee) will work if the drain maintains a gap of 1" above the weir of the inlet. (Would not recommend a wye however).

Sorry for the rant, but he should know better.

 

[ditttohead]

Agreed. And cross contamination is real and does occur. City wide power losses are a common cause. A house at the bottom of a hil will still have apparent water pressure when the water system loses pressure due to gravity. Should a customer have a drain back up (again power outage, sewage pumps don't work...) if the drains back up, the vacuum created by the guy downhill can suck the sewage back up. There are many other scenarios, but this is the one that we have seen recently occur that has caused considerable sickness.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

It it so common for people to do this incorrectly, that even a lot of the professionals have not learned the proper way.
In most plumbing/building codes the topic in question is referred to as "indirect waste".

 

[Reach4]

There are many other scenarios, but this is the one that we have seen recently occur that has caused considerable sickness.

In the case of the backwashing water filter, I think there has to be an additional condition needed to suck into the drain line. Such as where the filter was in backwash when the power went out or the controller failed, or the backwash starts while there is still a vacuum on the water line. OR the controller seal controlling the backwash water leaks. Could happen, but it is another coincidence factor.

 

[montisqu]

How easy is it to install the air gap myself? I just plug the drain tube into one end of the air gap and then clip the air gap into top of the standpipe opening? How can I be sure the airgap doesn't fall off? I prefer not to drill or glue anything.



On a side note, I was searching this forum and saw another plumber stating that the codes are overexhagerating. He said there is not enough pressure in the sewer drain to backup into the water filter and softener tubes.

 

[ditttohead]

Sewage systems are not pressurized for the most part, they are gravity... It has nothing to do with pressure and any plumber who states that it is ok to directly connect a potable line with a sewage line without a cross contamination prevention elimination device should have his license considered for removal.

 

[ENIGMA-2]

In most plumbing/building codes the topic in question is referred to as "indirect waste".

Well yes and no. If the softener drain is connected to a standpipe, it would not be an indirect waste. If it drains to a sump, and the sump has a pump that pumps the waste to a sewer, that that would be an indirect waste.