Wet Bar Outlets

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by Al G., Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Al G.

    Al G. New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Woodbridge, VA
    I'm installing a wet bar in my basement. The bar will be about 10 feet long with a sink about 3 feet from one end. I'll be installing three outlets above the counter, all GFCI protected. There will be a wine cooler below the counter about 3 feet from the sink. It will have an outlet in the wall behind it. Does it have to be a dedicated outlet? Can be on the same circuit as the refrigerator on an adjacent wall? Can it be on the same circuit as the above counter outlets? Does that outlet need to be GFCI protected?

    There will also be a microwave in a cabinet above the counter about 2 feet from the sink. A dedicated outlet will be in the cabinet. Does it have to be GFCI protected?
  2. Homeownerinburb

    Homeownerinburb New Member

    Messages:
    525
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    To the best of my knowledge (before JW swoops in quoting code passages) the wine cooler may be on either of the circuits you indicate, and it needs not be gfci protected (as counter top appliances will not be plugged into it and then dropped into the sink). It SHOULD NOT be gfci protected nor should any other fridge as the contents can be damaged/destroyed if the gfci trips.

    In kitchens, dedicated circuits are required for built in microwaves. These need not be gfci protected because, again, one is not going to be plugging in an egg beater there and then dropping it into a full sink. Dedicated circuits (circuits for only one purpose/appliance/load) generally are not to terminate in a duplex outlet but rather a single outlet.

    Currently in cities where I work, if I am laying in circuits in a kitchen, I am required to have a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the range hood. Because eventually someone is going to take down the range hood and install a microwave/range hood affair. The outlet providing 120v to the stove can be on the same circuit, but none of the counter outlets.

    Anyway, that is how I wire a kitchen these days. Basement wet bars are slightly different, I expect. We got no basements in Los Angeles, or not many.
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,947
    Location:
    New England
    Humm...the reason for a GFCI is in case you might provide a path for a faulty electrical device...like say reach for the microwave while you have one hand on the sink. Or be standing in some water (or wine or beer) you may have spilled on the slab while trying to use some electrical device.

    And, if I understand things, they would need to be AFCI protected as well as of 1 Jan, 2014, at least in some places.

    If your device trips a GFCI, it has a fault and needs to be fixed. No excuse to not use one where required.
  4. Homeownerinburb

    Homeownerinburb New Member

    Messages:
    525
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    I am desperate to understand what all is coming down the pike on arc faults, but that was not the question.

    "Develop a fault"? A microwave oven or a wine cooler are going to just spontaneously develop a fault? I have never accepted this logic, even if it what I am supposed to accept.

    Dropping the toaster into a sink full of water? Yeah. I want to protect against that.

    Outlets that are not normally accessible from the counter are not required to be gfci protected.
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,534
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; If your device trips a GFCI, it has a fault and needs to be fixed.

    Wow! You must be REALLY lucky if you have NEVER had a GFCI randomly trip. I have known MANY people, including my daughter, who lost everything in their freezers when the GFCI it was plugged into decided to trip while they were away on vacation. Code, or no code, I would NOT plug a refrigerator or freezer into a GFCI outlet.
  6. Homeownerinburb

    Homeownerinburb New Member

    Messages:
    525
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    I certainly would fight like hell to refuse to install one behind a refrigerator. If a locality were to insist on it, I would certainly petition it to the local code board. It would be simple madness. I don't like the idea of installing arcfault breakers on that circuit either.

    I always try to sell a client on a dedicated circuit for the kitchen, if we have the walls wide open and it is going to be a small incremental cost.
  7. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,532
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Should your jurisdiction adopt the 2014 cycle then any receptacle within six feet of any sink including the disposal and it also mandates that all dishwashers be GFCI protected. Every room in a dwelling unit will have to be Arc-Fault protected except the garage and bathrooms; yes this includes the kitchen, refrigerator and microwave.

    Under today’s codes the dining room is required to be AFCI protected and should one only install two small appliance circuits as allowed by 210.11(C)(1) then receptacles in the kitchen are already required to be AFCI protected.
  8. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    Did 210.8((A)6) change to not only specify countertop recepticles needing GFI protection?
  9. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    If I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit to a refrigerator it does not have to be AFCI protected?
  10. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

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    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    My understanding, as far as 2014 NEC, is any branch circuits not GFCI protected, will have to be AFCI protected. Some will require both protections(combination breakers). The AFIs are primarily to prevent fires, and basically protect property. The fridge will have to be AFI'ed, even though its dedicated.

    My niche is commercial/industrial controls, so practical interpretation of dwelling codes aren't my forte. I hope one of the guys working in that field will clarify.
  11. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    From what I have read the kitchen and bath do not have to be on AFCI.
  12. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    Just read 2014 NEC codes for AFCI and I stand corrected!
  13. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    You posted before I could finish my reply. LOL

    As far as the latest standards, I'll disagree(now we agree)based on my understanding and application of the devices. The AFI protection is to be installed within 6' of the over current device(if its not a dedicated AFI breaker). This is to protect against fire from damaged branch circuit conductors between the panel, and downstream devices, regardless of use at the end device. The only exception is if the branch circuit conductors have physical protection by conduit, and concrete. Encased conduits pose a minimal fire danger.

    Combination breakers will offer AFI and GFI protection for areas requiring both, like kitchens and baths.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  14. houptee

    houptee Member

    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Monmouth County, NJ
  15. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    Thanks for the link, houptee. Ive learned more about AFI here in the past two weeks, than ever before. I can see a lot of wire pulling in the future if retrofits are mandated.
  16. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    992
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    First off, keep in mind that even though it is 2014, and the 2014 NEC is out, only a select few areas will actually adopt it immediately.
    Also, this is a wet bar, so quoting all these kitchen codes is meaningless.

    This refer would not have to be dedicated, but it would need to be GFI protected. Sorry to those who choose to ignore the codes for new equipment, but it DOES require GFI. Too bad if you lose food.
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,947
    Location:
    New England
    Not sure if it matters, but it is going into a basement as opposed to another place in the house.
  18. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    I just reread JWs post and baths and garages are exempt from the AFI rule. Is that because hair dryers and angle grinders will trip them?
  19. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    Jim, since it sounds like the basement is finished, the fact that its a basement should be mute. The proximity of the sink is a more important variable.
  20. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    I disagree, why would you need a Fridge GFCI protected never would do that and AFCI in a kitchen every time the motor on any appliance is going to spark and that would trip the AFCI.
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