Water softner recommendations wanted

[Bannerman]

@MaplesonD: A mediaguard contains a small amount of KDF so its lifespan and effectiveness will be limited and dependant on the flow rate, the amount of contaminants in the water and how well and how often it is backwashed.

A mediaguard is often used in a backwashing carbon filter to extend the life of the carbon and to prevent bacterial growth as carbon can support bacteria if not fully backwashed with a chlorinated (or other anti-bacterial agent) supply. Carbon is a very good filter media and is effective in reducing/removing many contaminants beyond KDF so a mediaguard can reduce some load off of the carbon especially when the water contains many contaminants.

Since KDF is so heavy, a softener or filter with a mediaguard may require a higher flow rate for backwashing than would be required without a mediaguard. Dittohead and a few others are more knowledgeable on the subject.

A 2 cuft softener does usually utilze a 12" X 52" tank. As no gravel is specified, same advice as indicated in paragraph 2 of post #19.

Answers to your other questions were also provided in post #19.

 

[Reach4]

The system I would like to get is very similar to what ChrisBeall is looking for. This is the first I have seen about mediaguard and it seems like a low maintenance alternative to a carbon filter somewhere else in the system. Am I reading it correctly that the mediaguard lasts for ~6 years and filters out chlorine as well as other undesirables? Sounds like there is little to no maintenance on the mediaguard itself, what are the downsides aside from what looks like a small added cost?

I think the GAC (granulated activated carbon) is what deals with the chlorine, and the KDF media is for H2S and maybe something else. The system described is a big GAC filter with the smaller KDF Media Guard as an adder. Because the Media Guard is much smaller diameter, the KDF gets a much higher GPM/square ft backwash than the GAC.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MaplesonD]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I don't think I would need mediaguard or a standalone backwashing GAC, I guess I need to find out how much chlorine may be in my water. If I just got a big blue GAC, would it make more sense to have it before the water softener or after the water softener? It seems to me that you would want it before the water softener to protect the resin from the chlorine, as after softening, there will still be no chlorine in the water for consumption purposes.

 

[Bannerman]

Follow the KDF information links included in post #19. The manufacturer specifies what each KDF media is appropriate to remove.

As a cartridge filter contains a small amount of GAC, its effectivness will be short lived and as the surface area is small, the effective filtration rate will be low at anything but a very low flow rates.

While a mediaguard diameter is small and would thereby require a reduced backwash rate, the same mediaguard maybe installed in various sized systems all normally utilizing different backwash rates. I expect the backwash rate would need to correspond to that required by the mediaguard as opposed to the surface square footage of the other media in the tank.

 

[Reach4]

While a mediaguard diameter is small and would thereby require a reduced backwash rate, the same mediaguard maybe installed in various sized systems all normally utilizing different backwash rates. I expect the backwash rate would need to correspond to that required by the mediaguard as opposed to the surface square footage of the other media in the tank.

I would like to think they would tune things so that each media see the gpm/sqft that they need. So if a softener needs 5.5 gpm/sqft an the 10 inch tank, with 0.55 sqft area would have about 3 GPM backwash... and in that case, if the media in the Media Guard needs 15 gpm/cuft, the media guard would have about 0.2 square ft cross section...

 

[MaplesonD]

As a cartridge filter contains a small amount of GAC, its effectivness will be short lived and as the surface area is small, the effective filtration rate will be low at anything but a very low flow rates.

So it almost sounds like there isn't much point to a big blue GAC? At what threshold amount of chlorine would someone need to think about filtering it out? Should I just have a sediment filter before the softener and leave it at that?

 

[Bannerman]

Removal of any amount of chlorine and in particular, the by-products of disinfection (THMs or TTHMs), is always a great idea and is healthier.

Cartridge filters only contain a small amount of carbon which will need replacement on a frequent basis. In addition, a small amount of media cannot support a higher flow rate required by the entire home (point of entry), so the contaminants you are attempting to remove, often will leak through. Cartridge filters are better suited for point of use (individual faucet - low flow rate) applications.

A larger volume of carbon in a back-washing filter is more appropriate for point of entry applications but if your main concern is chlorine removal, a media guard could be used in the softener.

Here's an older post regarding KDF media guards including the appropriate back-wash rate: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/media-guard-kdf-55-good-or-bad.48908/

 

[John Vegas]

Removal of any amount of chlorine and in particular, the by-products of disinfection (THMs or TTHMs), is always a great idea and is healthier.

Cartridge filters only contain a small amount of carbon which will need replacement on a frequent basis. In addition, a small amount of media cannot support a higher flow rate required by the entire home (point of entry), so the contaminants you are attempting to remove, often will leak through. Cartridge filters are better suited for point of use (individual faucet - low flow rate) applications.

A larger volume of carbon in a back-washing filter is more appropriate for point of entry applications but if your main concern is chlorine removal, a media guard could be used in the softener.

Here's an older post regarding KDF media guards including the appropriate back-wash rate: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/media-guard-kdf-55-good-or-bad.48908/

My 7000 SXT lasted slightly over three years before it leaked throught the drain line (likely a seal pack issue). I would look elsewhere other than Fleck if you can find something. Even the big box store lasts more than THREE years without maintenance. Good luck.

JS

 

[Bannerman]

John: I'm not certain how my comments in this thread regarding carbon and KDF chlorine removal media, relate to your experience with a seal failure issue in your Fleck 7000 SXT control valve. Are you implying that a seal prematurely failed due to excessive chlorine in your water? - IDK.

 

[MaplesonD]

Bannerman, thanks for helping me with all my questions, its making a lot of sense to me to look at filtering the water at point of use rather than for the whole house. The water from the kitchen sink (the fridge already has a filter in it) is basically the only water that I would really have any concern about the small amounts of contaminants, so why try to filter the hundreds of other gallons of water that only get used for showers, laundry, or toilets. I think Gary has said as much about the same topic in another thread, but I don't think I had a good grasp of the limitations of a small carbon filter on a water supply for an entire house.

I'm assuming a sediment filter is porous enough and doesn't need contact time so that it doesn't have a drastic effect on flow from the main water supply?

 

[Bannerman]

A sediment filter is generally rated as to the sediment size it will remove. A 1 micron filter will collect more sediment than a 10 micron filter, but will also clog faster and can have more flow restriction through the filterimg media than a coarser filter. As all of the home's water will normally flow through a point of entry filter, it is important that the filter surface area is large enough so it doesn't need too frequent replacement while also not reducing water flow to the home.

What sediment do you wish to remove? If the sediment in your water is mostly sand or silt, perhaps a spin-down filter will better suit your requirements. http://www.rusco.com/index.php/product1/spin-down-and-sediment-trapper-filters That type of filter does not use replaceable cartridges but debris is manually discharged out the bottom drain port on a periodic basis.

Remember that the softener, although it is not considered a filter, will filter out some sediment which will be flushed to drain during the backwash stage of the regeneration cycle.

Neither a sediment filter nor a softener will remove chlorine which is abosrbed not only through eating/drinking but also through the skin and inhalation.

 

[John Vegas]

John: I'm not certain how my comments in this thread regarding carbon and KDF chlorine removal media, relate to your experience with a seal failure issue in your Fleck 7000 SXT control valve. Are you implying that a seal prematurely failed due to excessive chlorine in your water? - IDK.

I thought the original post was about water softener selection. My public water supply is heavily chlorinated and its seems like the Fleck seals might be more sensitive to chlorine damage. I see the thread moved more to chlorine removal.
JS

 

[Bannerman]

John,

While the original topic was regarding softener recomendations, you quoted my comments on chlorine removal before including your statement.

 

[John Vegas]

John,

While the original topic was regarding softener recomendations, you quoted my comments on chlorine removal before including your statement.

My apologies.

 

[ChrisBeall]

Here's a belated follow-up on my original post>

First, a BIG thank-you to all the help I got here. Aside from its technical value, it gave me the confidence to go forward into a realm I was pretty uncomfortable with.

The system I ended up with, supplied by Abundant Flow Water, and designated a 48K system:
10" x 54" resin tank
16 lbs gravel (I made an explicit request for this; it would otherwise not have been included. This did not alter the price)
1.5 cu ft CR10 resin
Fleck 7000SXT valve
(The Fleck bypass valve was not used. The existing 3-valve bypass system was retained, but globe valves were replaced with ball valves, greatly improving flow rate.)
18" x 33" round brine tank

All materials were of high quality and delivery was timely.

I did all of the system assembly, after which a real plumber did the copper work, using sharkbite lines for the final connections (input and output lines had to be crossed to match the Fleck valve expectations). I installed an electrical outlet just above the unit, replacing 15' of two-wire extension cord that had been draped over various pipes and wires to the nearest outlet.

It's all very neat and works well, up to a point, which will be the subject of another post. Before and after photos attached.