Toilet installation problem [Flange height]

[Swanny]

Hi everyone. I'm not a plumber but I play one on TV LOL. Actually I'm a homeowner who is doing his own basement finishing. I had a hard time finding a plumber so I did my homework and ran my own Wirsbo water lines, bought the tool and everything.

Anywho, my problem is getting my toilet installed correctly. It's a long read but detailed ;-)

My house was built last year (07). The builder roughed in the (3"?) drain line and when they poured the cement on the basement floor, they went right up to the pipe. I managed to level the cement so the flange fits down flat on the concrete. Since I couldn't use a closet flange that fits on the outside of the pipe I went with one that fits inside the pipe.

I hope that all makes sense so far. So now with the flange glued down I fitted the toilet on the flange (dry fit) and there is a little gap between the toilet and the floor in a few spots. Easy enough I thought, I bought some toilet (white rubber) shims and got the toilet to fit fine without rocking (again this is prior to actually putting it down with the wax seal).

So I installed the wax ring (with a black plastic insert in the middle of it). When I wiggled and pushed down the gap was even bigger, the toilet was higher off the floor! I couldn't get it to fit down nicely so I gave up. That was yesterday.

My brother-in-law stopped by today (he has his own construction company). He looked at it and we discovered the black plastic in the middle of the wax ring was causing the problem with the toilet not being able to fit down with only a little gap. So....

I bought a new wax ring, the kind that's just wax with no plastic thingy in the middle. However before installing I noticed that the toilet itself is rubbing on the closet flange and so it's transferred a bit of black plastic to the bottom of the toilet. See the photo called toilet1.jpg.

My questions are as follows:
1. Can I grind down the toilet porcelain at all to help the toilet fit flush against the floor? I will grind off just a smidge off the edge of the flange toward the front of the toilet, that will be easy.
2. Should I use MONO, acrylic, or silicone to seal the base of the toilet? Does it even matter?

Also see toilet2.jpg attachment, you can see the flange installed.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

Water base caulk, something like maby poly seal?

If you grind, maybe not too much.

Those horns aren't good when you have a high flange.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Swart]

There are a couple of errors here. The first one isn't really your fault, but the inside fitting flange should not be used on 3" pipe. These cut the inside diameter of the drain too much and can lead to problems. I understand you felt you had no choice because the concrete was pour clear up to the pipe, but what you really should do is remove that flange then chisel out some concrete around the pipe so that an exterior fitting flange can be used. I know this will be a problem with the tile already down, but that's the only way I know of that would be right. I would look carefully at the pipe coming up and consider trimming it down a bit. Probably 1/4" would be enough to allow the new flange to fit flat on the floor. The second problem is the wax ring with the plastic horn. These are actually worthless and should never be used. Use a "plain Jane" ring. Before ripping up flooring and getting that old flange off, you could try just the plain ring as see if that would help. I still don't like the interior fit flange, but if just the better ring solves the seating problem, I'd sure give it a try.

 

[Verdeboy]

A good rule of thumb is, the lower the flange, the thicker the wax ring. Flanges that are below the level of the floor often require two wax rings to make a good seal. Flanges that are slightly above the floor require just a standard thickness, without the horn.

I disagree that a horned wax ring is always useless. It just doesn't work in your situation, because a high flange means the wax squishes down all the way to the plastic, which ruins your seal. So, no horned ring for you.

Any acrylic latex caulk is fine to caulk around the base. I prefer DAP.

 

[Swanny]

Thanks for the replies everyone. So if I want to grind down that porcelain drain hole just a tad, what's the best way to go about doing that? I tried searching here on grinding porcelain but that was no help.

I have a bunch of grinding attachments for my dremel, is that what I'd use? I also have a stone wheel type thing that attaches to my drill. It may also work, not sure.... and how important is it that that hole be flat on the bottom? I'm thinking it can be a little bit not flat due to the wax ring doing the main sealing job anyway.

Gary, the flange is sitting flat on the (concrete) floor. It's too late to start breaking up concrete ;-) The tile you see is actually vinyl (linoleum?) flooring that looks like tile, glued down right on the concrete.

Oh wait, one more question. Right now the flange part with the bolt holes spins freely (the center of the closet flange is glued down and the outer ring spins to make it easier to align). Should I be bolting/screwing that down securely to the concrete? I think I know the answer already ;-)

 

[Jadnashua]

See all those holes in the flange ring? They're there for a reason.

If you set your toilet properly, the horn is useless and creates more problems than it can possibly solve.

If the flange does not sit flat on the floor, few toilets will fit properly.

 

[Gary Swart]

If your flange is flat on the floor as you say, then your almost there. Orient the ring carefully so that the flange bolts are parallel to the back wall. That way the toilet will align properly and the flange bolts will stay in the flange. Next you need to anchor that ring to the concrete floor. There are several ways to do this. My personal preference is to use a hammer drill and drill 5/16" holes, set lead inserts into those holes, and use #12 stainless steel screws into the inserts. I'd use 4 to 6 of these screws. Then just the plain wax ring. I'd just live with the inside fitting flange. Some guys like Tapcon screws, but you can use any system you like as long is the anchors the flange solidly to the sub floor (concrete for you)

 

[hj]

toilet

Any good plumber would tell you, "Leave the toilet alone." Make the flange fit properly. That 3" internal flange should be discarded and if they never make another one, civilization will be better for it.

 

[Redwood]

Any good plumber would tell you, "Leave the toilet alone." Make the flange fit properly. That 3" internal flange should be discarded and if they never make another one, civilization will be better for it.

I agree! The only thing wrong with this installation is the flange with an ID of less than 3"