Tankless Hot Water Systems Nortiz

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by lizch, Oct 7, 2005.

  1. lizch

    lizch New Member

    Messages:
    8
    My plumber has recommended a Noritz tankless hot water system. I would like to know how this brand compares to others. Does anyone have a good website that compares all systems?

    Thanks,
    Liz
  2. tankless vs tank water heaters

    Here is a link to bradford white and a test they did between
    their tank type and tankless water heaters.. they sell both...


    reading between the lines you get the impression that
    they favor their tank typw heaters and the facts speak
    for themselves. Its pretty clear that they did
    not want to put down a line of products that they sold. ...

    the tank type water heater is
    simply the best way to go over the short and long haul....
    according to someone who sells both...


    all the variables and cost anaylisis is factored into each
    path you could take...



    http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,141364,00.html
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2005
  3. lizch

    lizch New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Tankless Noritz?

    Thank you for the good article comparing systems. I would still like to know if anyone has had experience with the Noritz tankles system.

    Thanks,
    Liz
  4. they are all junk

    I know that you are hell bent on getting one
    and your mind cannot be changed...its ok

    you got to find it out on your own....
    through bitter experience.



    I was just trying to hint at the fact
    that all of them are junk and are
    not worth the initial install cost or will
    ever last long enough to re-coup the costs ...

    they will break down before you break even
    and the engenireers even mention that too...
    that repairs to the unit needs to be factored
    into the equation too.....

    that is what that artical was sayin in a round-about way..

    and if they say this about their own product,

    it really says someting about the whole industry

    IMO

    heres another article to read for fun...


    http://www.askthebuilder.com/451_Tankless_Water_Heaters_-_Some_Surprising_Facts.shtml
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2005
  5. srdenny

    srdenny Plumbing Contractor

    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Liz
    Try this site:
    http://www.noritzamerica.com
    As for Mark's remarks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether or not these units are viable over the long run remains to be seen. Their cost savings are hard to quantify and depend upon a particular pattern of use.
    I usually steer pottential customers away from tankless units in replacement situations because the extra cost of bringing in a new gas line and running a Catagory III flue are hard to recoupe over the life of the heater. However, in new construction or major remodel situations, tankless heaters are closer in cost to conventional water heaters because instead of replacing a gas line you're just upsizing the gas and instead of replacing the flue you're just running Cat III instead of B vent.
    In all honesty, I generally sell tankless to people who wish to have an endless supply of hot water and aren't particularly price sensative. Plus, in my area (SF Peninsula) the square foot cost of houses is so high that the space savings of a tankless heater come into play. For these and other reasons, I've performed a number of large multiple unit installations.
    To get back to Mark's comments. I think the original tankless heaters marketed by Paloma, Boch and a few other European Companies, were prone to breakdown. However, the more recent market presense of Japanese manufactured heaters (Noritz, Takagi, Renai) with their sophisticated electronics is from my experience, more trouble free, especially coupled with Webstone's isolation valves with purging ports. If these units are, as Mark says, junk, then I and a number of my colleagues are going to be in a world of trouble in about 5 years.
  6. wait and see

    It really a matter of maintaince and hardness
    of the water as to wether they will ever be
    cost efficient....

    in the midwest , the coils lime up too quickly
    so I am not a fan of them for our region...


    but if they last 5 years , then you are off the hook....

    its the home-owners problem ..
  7. srdenny

    srdenny Plumbing Contractor

    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    [​IMG]
    Mark,
    Hardness deposits are what the Webstone Valves are for. They make purging the heat exchanger coil relatively simple. See for yourself:
    http://www.webstonevalves.com/isolatorexp.html
    I know this is a maintenance issue, but other pieces of mechanical equipment need periodic maintenance as well. With regular purging, these units should last 20 years. That's where the positive ROI comes in. And maintenance shouldn't cost any more than maintaininmg a furnace or boiler.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2005
  8. simple is better

    If you like them thats ok with me

    all I know is for the avearge Joe , he is ot

    going to maintain anything more than he has to...

    thats our life-style in the USA


    Even draining their water heaters is an accomplishment

    for the average home-owner these days, but the tank type heaters

    seem to still last about 10 + years without even touching them. ..


    Changeing out the furnace filters is
    something even I forget to do too...



    So in my opioion,

    Messing around "purgeing this unit" every so often is just

    not something the average person is willing to do

    or simply wont do untill its too late....


    now for the "hands on " type of

    person who likes to "tinker"

    you might have a chance of it working out ok..



    To me, its just like my wife------high maintaince--------

    with no hope of cost recovery...LOL


    but fun to tinker with.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2005
  9. Kristi

    Kristi Tradesman Plumber

    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    go tankless!

    LOL... ohhhh MPMark you ARE a handful :)
    I can tell your wife has her work cut out for her!


    --------------

    my take on tankless vs. hwh? It seems absolutely archaic and backwards thinking to me for us to continue storing our hot water every single day of every year for the life of our homes - what a waste on every single level!!! Store water at the ideal temperature to be available for a maximum of 2 hours out of every 24??? There HAS to be a way to improve this... yes there will be some hiccups and develpment time leeway given, but we're certainly one of the last of the developed countries out there to catch on to the "on-demand" way of thinking. I'm all for it, and hope that the trend shifts sooner than later, extra maintenance or not! After all, we're plumbers - WE can perform the maintenance!
  10. alhurley

    alhurley Guest

    That's a pretty broad statement don't you think? The old spring-loaded mousetrap is also "archaic" but I'll bet it's still the most effective and most-often used. I've done a little research on this myself and I come up with the same answer as the B-W article - it depends. It stands to reason that the tankless does well at both ends of the use spectrum - very low (occasional use) demand or very high (near continuous) flow. But while storing water may seem illogical, one has to look at the bigger picture. For example, from what I see, the initial cost of the tankless can be a LOT higher than the tank, and the payback is not clear given the maintenance. Well, if I'm trying to save energy, could that money be put to better use elsewhere? I'll bet I could save a lot more if that difference was invested in a more efficient furnace, for example.
    Again, it's not that simple. A lot of people, self included, are "thinking" about tankless, but it's back to the use profile. Right or wrong (whatever that means), I submit that we use hot water a lot differently than much of the rest of the world. (so how often do they shower in France? :eek: )
    wishful thinking, don't you think? As a pretty typical consumer, maintenance IS a big factor. Just like my car or anything else I own. And the only time a plumber has ever been in my house was because the home warranty paid for it. Pretty much the same for my parents' house. Nothing personal, mind you, it's just that funds are finite, and if I'm spending them on plumbers or even DIY maintenance them I'm NOT spending on improving or other fun stuff. ;)

    I do hope tankless gets there, and will continue watching. But I don't feel like beta-testing. When tankless is ready for primetime - USA-style - I'll be one of the first in line.

    -art-
  11. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    I venture that our (USA) water usage is much greater than many parts of the world. We are used to a lot of pressure and a lot of volume ( 4 body sprays! etc). I believe it is this difference which has driven the use of tankless, or at least made them more practical, in other countries.

    Water is certainly a precious resource, especially here in S. Calif. But, I see us giving up our Hollywood showers right after we give up our Hummers and Expeditions!
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,923
    Location:
    New England
    I've looked at the curves of supply, temperature rise, gpm, and pressure reduction and if you are only using it for a single point of service at one time, it isn't a bad choice, but still more expensive than a storage heater. But, if you want to fill a large tub, or use multiple points of service at the same time, forget it. If using gas, for all practical purposes, it needs to be direct vented - and a significant one at that. If electric, you might very well need 300-400A service or more, a rareity in most houses. Yes there are smaller units, and they say 6-7gpm, but if you really dig down into the specs, they'll only be useful under ideal conditions. Most are speced at 50 degree input water. Mine last winter was just above freezing. Another I read didn't recommend it if the supply line was greater than 23', as the temperature loss in piping greater than that meant that the point of use temperature would probably not be sufficient. When using a tank, it is not uncommon to have to mix some cold water in when filling a tub or taking a shower - this improves the volume available vs just from the hot side. WIth a tankless, it is not often once the water is flowing for a moment that you will need much if any from the cold line, thus, your pressure and volume is restricted to what you can get from the tankless unit. Granted, if it is the middle of summer, or you input water temp is 60 degrees or higher, you may need a tempering valve on the output, but that is another hassle - those fail and your output temp can then vary radically through the seasons. I've lived in five different countries, used tankless in a couple, and I'd much rather use a storage tank. All of the volume you want when you need it. Choose a good quality tank, well insulated, and your costs will not be high. Check it out, most good tanks are rated at about 1degree/hour loss. Thus, once hot, the tank doesn't run much. Buy a cheap tank, though, and that standby loss is greater. Hook it to a 93% efficient boiler as an indirectly heated tank, and your efficiency more than makes up for the efficiency of a tankless at a lower cost to buy and maintain. My unprofessional opinion.
  13. srdenny

    srdenny Plumbing Contractor

    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Good points, Al, Jimbo and Jim. If certain specific conditions exist, then tankless is an option.
    Jim's comments " But, if you want to fill a large tub, or use multiple points of service at the same time, forget it." Actually in high use situations, tankless can really shine. Give me a high gpm and I'll give you a tankless setup that will fill the bill. I'll gaurantee you'll have all the hot water you demand 24/7/365 (as long as you have water, gas and power). Just promise me you won't get sticker shock. High volume multiple unit setups aren't cheap, but they are available.
  14. Bravo......well said.......

    you said it all right there....thank you very , very much...

    only someone that has had to live with one of those tankless
    heaters really understands what a total pain they are....

    and you literally save nothing or actually lose in the short or long run.

    you have no volume and really only can run one
    faucet at a time....slowly at that.....

    in the winter months the incomming water is too cold to get
    it up to any decent temp through that coil...

    the gas one needs a direct vent out the roof
    with a double wall smoke stack of at least 4 inch or more...$$$

    an electric one needs incomming voltage like
    something you would see
    on the space shuttle.....$$$.

    add all these extra costs up just to install one and you
    could literally buy 3 normal gas hot water heaters.

    with barely or no cost saveings at all......

    then you also got to factor in maintainance to the unit.....
    if you can find someone to repair or maintain it in
    a timely manner..




    they are nothing but trouble ,
    thats my story
    and I am sticking to it.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2005
  15. Kristi

    Kristi Tradesman Plumber

    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Of course we all have our experiences and opinions to share with this sort of thing, and I think it's just FANTASTIC that we can do this!

    The propane tankless unit that I installed for a family member in their high-end remote home has been nothing short of revolutionary. It helps that they are family, so I can continually check in with how it's going. They (in particular) don't have a single complaint - it's been totally problem free for 2 1/2 years now, and they have a reasonably high usage load on it (this remote place is occupied year round). I would have a hard time convincing them to go the storage way again... of course, we are talking about gas NOT electric options here, they definitely don't have that one sorted out yet.

    I think you guys nailed it when you mentioned how it all comes down to individual consumption. It depends on how you use your water, and when we've been as spoiled as we've been it's difficult to make any changes with our habits. We're a continent that is fortunate (unfortunately) in our ability to over-indulge! Water (in my opinion of course) is THE most valuable resource in the world and should be treated as such... you guys will flip out on me if we talk about 6L flush toilets! LOL... :p
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2005
  16. slb

    slb New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    San Francisco North Bay
    Tankless heaters are great for large families. My brother installed one about four years ago and has had no problems or complaints. They have three kids, a 9 year old boy and two teenage girls, and runnuing out of hot water was a big issue before he switched to tankless.

    I still haven't decided whether it makes sense for just my wife and I. The lure of endless hot water is appealing, but currently, we only run short of hot water when we have guests stay over a few times a year.

    -Steve
  17. alhurley

    alhurley Guest

    I haven't seen anybody comment on using a tankless as a "booster" in a house with a tank. Is that done? Does it make sense? Our house is a long ranch with the tank and laundry on opposite ends of the house, with kitchen closer to laundry than tank. Frankly, I'm guessing there's a lot more waste in flushing the cold out of the lines in the kitchen/laundry than worrying about keeping a few gallons heated 24/7 in a tank.

    I could picture at least a couple of possible scenarios:

    - the tankless sits between tank and kitchen/laundry on the hot water line and simply maintains a minimum output temp. It would kick in full initially to give "instant" hot then taper off to zero as fully heated water from the tank reached the area. If the tank started cooling (eg, someone taking long shower) the tankless would kick back in for whatever 'boost' was needed. (unfortunately, the boost only helps the laundry - you still run out of hot for the shower)

    or
    - the tankless is near the kitchen/laundry as above, but the input is a "blend" of hot from the tank and cold. In this mode the tankless comes on full initially but never actually shuts off completely because the 'blended' input is never more than warm. I kind of like this one because it would (in theory) reduce the load on the tank and easily allow showers and laundry to run concurrently with minimal impact. You'd have to play with the balancing, but it should allow you to get a lot of bang from a fairly small tankless rather than sizing for the entire house (which I'm still not sold on). And you really cut down on wasting water for "warmup."

    thoughts?

    -art-
  18. booster unit

    a tankless for a booster would be a joke...

    now their are two ways you could either help the tankless

    unit would be to put a standing 50 galllon pre heater tank before the

    tankles unit to get the water up to room temperature....


    jsut standing in the UNHEATED tank all day would
    raise the temp of the water to the surrounding temp and

    that would be lessa burden on the tankless unit




    WE see this some time in homes that are older where
    they have a holding tank that the water
    stands in all day before it goes into the heater

    it ususlly makes the heater last three times longer

    ITS A VERY OLD CONCEPT---LIKE THE MOUSE TRAP
  19. carpenter paul

    carpenter paul New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Alaska
    I direct a Bible camp and have two buildings that house 32 people each. the original hot water storage tanks that were installed are not sufficient. The heating systems are both boiler, in floor heat. the tanks are boilermates. I was looking at installing instant hot water after the tanks. But now I'm not sure that, that would be sufficient either. There are four showers in each building and eight sinks.

    The buildings do not get used during the week in the winter, only on weekends, but are used all week in the summer.

    What might be the most cost effective solution with what already exists. We do have 4 Bosch on demand heaters that work well in smaller cabins (two showers each), although I did just replace one.
  20. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    RE Guest Hurley - Booster

    I haven't seen anybody comment on using a tankless as a "booster" in a house with a tank. Is that done? Does it make sense? Our house is a long ranch with the tank and laundry on opposite ends of the house, with kitchen closer to laundry than tank. Frankly, I'm guessing there's a lot more waste in flushing the cold out of the lines in the kitchen/laundry than worrying about keeping a few gallons heated 24/7 in a tank.

    The solution to that is to install a small Point-of-Use water heater such as the Ariston GL4 or GL2.5 at the distant usage point and feed it with the hot water line. It supplies instant hot water and before it runs out it is heated with water from your main hot water heater.

    They plug into a 115 Volt circuit and draw only about as much power as a teakettle when heating.
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