Request mercy - need serious advice.

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Toiletsareconfusing!, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Toiletsareconfusing!

    Toiletsareconfusing! New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    New Orleans.
    I am buying a house under construction. I need three toilets and want Toto. I am planning to buy a Toto S300 washlet for my master. I want skirted toilets and the tallest possible toilets, I don't have any munchkins. I have been reading your blog which is incredible but it is very confusing. I guess it is narrowed own to the aquia ( not sure which one) or vespian. The other are too expensive unless I get just one really nice one. Question one - what do you recommend? Question two - do the toilets come with wax ring, water supply line, etc - everything that normally comes with a toilet? Thanks so much for your opinion, it does matter - who would think this could be so confusing? My plumber hasn't installed them before so he knows nothing!
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,262
    Location:
    New England
    The Vespin and the Aquia install somewhat differently than a normal toilet (and from each other) in that they both have an adapter that gets mounted on the floor and the toilet flange, then you mount the toilet onto the adapter. Neither is hard, and they both come with templates. The biggest difference is that if the floor is tiled, you have to drill holes in it, and that is something a plumber may not have the proper tools to do. If he does, it takes less than probably 30-minutes more to install than a normal toilet when you've done it before, but probably longer doing it the first time. If he's willing to read, it's not a big deal for someone with the skills to be a plumber. That doesn't always happen, as a lot of people are unwilling to actually read instructions!
  3. Toiletsareconfusing!

    Toiletsareconfusing! New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    New Orleans.
    Thanks, Jim, do you know the reputation of either toilet? They both say they are universal height, but I really want Ada height? Ideas? Thanks again.
  4. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,384
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    ADA and Universal are the same. A true ADA compliant toilet has some other requirements to be met which only are necessary if the user(s) is handicapped. Toilets do not usually come with wax rings or supply lines, but these are cheap and readily available at any hardware store. You might want to read some more about the Unifit Adapters and see photos of them. Just follow the links on "Toilet Reviews" above and find the models of toilet you are interested in. These adapters are a Toto exclusive device and are used on several models of toilets but not all. The rest of the Toto models install exactly the same as every other brand of toilet.
  5. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    You asked about reputation of the toilets. If you think a dual-flush would be nice, the Aquia gets very good reviews on here, and Terry has sold hundreds of them with less-than-1-percent returns -- i.e. 99 out of 100 of his customers like their Aquia. Moreover, he gets good word of mouth on them from customers, and has sold additional toilets to folks who get one for one room, then later replace another bathroom's toilet with an Aquia. It's a solid performer. The Vespin II is like the Drake II except it is skirted. (On any given day, the Drake II is the number one or two selling toilet -- by ANY manufacturer -- at one big retailer.) The Vespin II gets high marks from users. The double-cyclone flush is nice and gives decent bowl rinse.

    The Vespin II is basically a skirted Drake II. The Vespin II has a measurement of 17-3/8" from the floor to the top of the part of the seat that you sit on (not the lid of the seat). The Drake CST744SL, which is an "ADA -- Handicap" version of the original Drake, is 17-1/2" on the same measurement. It's an 1/8" difference between the "universal height" and the "ADA" toilet. 1/8" isn't going to be noticeable -- in fact it's probably within the tolerances of molding an item out of porcelain. The Aquia CST412MF is 17-1/8" from floor to top of part of seat you sit on, and still considered a "universal height". (You don't want the "Aquia II" CST416M, because it's only 16-3/8" tall on that same dimension; it's not universal height.)

    So, in short, you don't need to go with an "ADA" toilet because there is not a meaningful difference in height. If you want the Aquia, you want the CST412MF. If you want the Vespin II, it's CST474CEFG. If you are not wedded to the idea of a skirted toilet, the Drake II (CST454CEFG) uses the identical tank to the Vespin II, and looks similar except down below (skirted vs unskirted). You save about 60-65 in street price if you don't need the skirt, and the toilet will mount conventionally (i.e. your plumber installs it just the way he has everything else). However, if you like the skirt, then either one should work great. Terry installs the skirted toilets for exactly the same price that he installs the non-skirted ones, so your plumber shouldn't be whining and charging you a bunch more to put in the Unifit adapter and install the toilet. In fact, once he has done one for you, he now has a skill that he can use when his clients want a great toilet that really fits on 14" (the Vespin II) and doesn't stick into the room. He should read up on the Unifit; it's a great product that makes a big difference in how a toilet fits on 14".
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,262
    Location:
    New England
    To be able to be certified as an ADA toilet, the seat height, flush lever, shape (elongated) must all meet certain requirements. The acceptable height for ADA is within the range of what Toto offers. FWIW, to be fully ADA complient, the flush lever must be on the side of the entry door (i.e., not against the wall side) to qualify. Toto does not offer different tanks for all toilets, so they do not necessarily get an ADA certification, but could meet an ADA install, if your layout had the entry on the left, where most of their flush levers are.
  7. Toiletsareconfusing!

    Toiletsareconfusing! New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    New Orleans.
    Y'all are the best! Thanks so much!
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Our pleasure!! That's what we're here for. Let us know how it goes and how you like/love them once you're in your new home!
  9. Clee

    Clee New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Dallas
    We are building and want to put in toto toilets. Want double cyclone, skirted, universal height for adults and something lower for kids. What's the best toilet?
  10. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    If it were I, I would look at the following for the adults and pick any one based on aesthetics and price, as they all flush great:

    Double Cyclone, Skirted, Universal Height: Carlyle II one-piece toilet (like an Ultramax II with a skirt) MS614114CEFG;
    Vespin II two-piece toilet (like a Drake II with a skirt) CST474CEFG.

    For more money, there are two stylish toilets that flush equally-great and also are skirted, one-piece, Double-Cyclone, Universal Height: the Eco Soiree MS964214CEFG and the Eco Guinevere MS974224CEFG. I think you go for those only if you are wowed by the aesthetics, as the first two I mentioned perform great.

    For the kids, the lower toilet you probably want is the original Drake, which is not skirted, is regular height and flushes great. None of the double-cyclone toilets come in normal height, but the GMax 1.6gpf flush and the EMax 1.28gpf flush on the original Drake are legendary. Just a little less bowl-rinse than the double-cyclone. CST744S for the 1.6gpf and CST744E for the 1.28gpf.

    If you want a skirted toilet for the kids, there is one at the regular height, but it's a dual-flush (i.e. push one button on it, get a smaller water usage to dispose of liquid only, push the other button when you have solids). It's also a washdown flush. (Washdown flush gives good bowl rinse.) That is, one of the several Toto Aquia dual-flush skirted toilets is available in regular height, with a washdown flush. It's a very popular toilet that people really like. CST416M in the two-piece.

    Also, if you like a dual-flush at universal height, skirted, two-piece, the CST412MF is your Aquia. If you want it in a one-piece, it's CST654114MF. Again, the Aquias are very popular and flush great. But they are not double-cyclone.

    If you want a dual-flush, skirted, double-cyclone, universal-height toilet, there is the Maris CST484CEMFG. Oddly enough, it doesn't come up promptly on the Toto web site (you have to go to "CalGreen Toilets" to find it), so I don't know if it is on the way out the door or not, but it appears still to be available at merchants.

    Remember that all these toilets are available at a significant discount off of list price. You can look at Terry's prices above to get a sense of what's fair.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  11. Clee

    Clee New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Dallas
    Awesome! Thank you!
  12. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Let us know how it goes. We are always interested. (Austin is probably far too from you, but there are two good, friendly stores there that sell Totos at a good price, according to several forum members, if you come in knowing the model numbers and colors you want. One is Josco Plumbing Supply and the other is Economy Supply. You might just be ordering through your builder, but I thought I would mention it... Economy Supply has branches in Dallas and Fort Worth, but we don't have any reports from members about those branches... http://www.economysupplytexas.com/)
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  13. Clee

    Clee New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Dallas
    Thanks for the additional info. Between the maris and Aquia, which one would you get? I'm thinking the vespin ii for the master bath (i'm assuming it's the most powerful of the three) and the maris for the rest of the house? Our house won't be ready til dec.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Those are both great choices. The only thing is that the Maris is going to be Universal Height, so if you wanted a lower bowl for the kids, I would go with the specific version of the Aquia that is regular height -- CST416M.

    Here's a video by a guy who loves his Vespin II:

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2014
  15. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    In the video in the post above, you can see the Vespin II uses a siphon jet at the bottom of the bowl to forcefully-create a siphon and eject the waste. That water doesn't pass through the top of the bowl, so you get that double-cyclone rinse and a quiet, non-violent, but top-of-the-line-in-effectiveness flush.

    In contrast, the Aquia in the video below uses a washdown flush, meaning that there's nothing at the base of the bowl to shove the waste through the hole, just the water washing down into the bowl. This is an effective flush as well, and gives significant bowl rinse. I think many Aquia owners like this flush because it seems forceful and more violent than the quiet-but-effective flush of the Vespin II. The MAP ratings of the toilets are both excellent, so they will both dispose readily of significant quantities of waste.

    One thought as you look at these -- the Aquia needs to (and does) have a bit more bowl wash because it has a significantly-smaller water spot than do the double-cyclone toilets, so, um, some "stuff" is likely to just land on the porcelain, rather than splashing into the water, and will then need to be rinsed off. The Aquia is a toilet about which almost nobody complains -- Terry says customers just come back and buy more of them -- so the rinse is obviously-sufficient, but in the tradeoffs of toilet design (i.e. how to use the limited amount of water), the one design uses relatively-little water for bowl rinse but doesn't need much, and flushes very quickly and quietly, while the other design is going to need some decent bowl rinse and provides it, while flushing a little longer and more dramatically.

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2014
  16. Toiletsareconfusing!

    Toiletsareconfusing! New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    New Orleans.
    Good day! As I attempted to buy three Vespian II for all of my bathrooms, the sales person recommended I buy the Soirée for the master and powder and the Vespian for jack and Jill bath or the Aquia III. Three questions and one general what do you think? All three look like good choices with one general common complaint about Aquia which is that it seems to drip and make a lot of noise when filling so 1) is there any important and worthy advantage of one toilet over the other? 2) I have a 12 inch rough in each bath, will all three toilets work with this rough in and do I need to personally buy a unfit, wax or rubber ring or any other equipment for the plumber? 3) I read something once about installing the supply line six inches out instead of the customary three, is this true and does it matter? The general question, I found all three toilets considerably cheaper on line. I WANT to support my community businesses because I recognize that they have expenses and need to make a profit, BUT I found out they give cheaper prices to builders and SOME people. For example, one place gave me a price, my builder five dollars cheaper and another guy 50 dollars cheaper still. Thoughts? Thanks for all guidance, I am at least ready to buy and feel confident with my decisions, thanks to y'all.
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    New York, NY
    On the choice of toilets: get the ones that you like the looks of the best. All will work fine. There's nothing particularly "drippy" about the Aquia on refill; that seems like an odd, one-off complaint by someone. In your initial post, you were concerned about the prices, so I recommended that Vespin II, as it is the skirted version (you wanted a skirt) of one of Toto's most popular toilets at the moment, the Drake II, and is the least-expensive of the skirted toilets. In short, it's a great toilet and a great value. The Soiree is a wonderful toilet, but it's more expensive without any meaningful increase in performance. In our master bath, we have a Carlyle II, not because it works any better than a Drake II, but because we liked the way it looked, and knew it would perform as well as any of the other "II" toilets.

    In short, you can't go wrong with any of your choices.

    If your home has 12" rough-ins, you will not need to buy any different Unifit adapter. The skirted toilets all come with a 12" Unifit in the box, included.

    A plumber will traditionally provide the wax ring when installing the toilet.

    Now...where to buy. You are building so you have plenty of time to take delivery, I assume. This gives you time to shop around. Decide on what you want, then shop!! The best way to do so is to open the yellow pages to Plumbing Supply and call around to at least 7 places, regardless of whether the ad says they carry Toto, asking for a quote on a specific model number -- e.g. CST474CEFG, the Vespin II -- and a color (i.e. cotton white). Tell them you are ready to pay cash today for it, and that price is important in your decision on where to buy it. You will be shocked at how widely the prices vary from supplier to supplier. In Austin, Texas, for example, perseverence by one of our contributors found a place that routinely sells at or near the lowest prices available from any sales channel, as well as a place that sells at almost the full "suggested retail price". They are entitled to choose the price at which they are willing to sell, and you are entitled to call around and check different possible sources to get the best price. Also, do your research and know what a fair street price is for each model.

    Since you are building, you can have the plumber put the supply anywhere. The spec sheet says 6" above the finished floor and 8" left of the toilet centerline. Many of the Totos will be happy with significantly-less distance from the centerline, but if you can put it anywhere, you might as well put it there.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
Similar Threads: Request mercy
Forum Title Date
Toilet Forum discussions Request suggestions for senior-on-budget toilet replacement Jul 31, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions Request: Comfortable elongated toilet seat for Toto Drake May 6, 2011
Toilet Forum discussions Specific Flange Repair Request Sep 3, 2009
Toilet Forum discussions So if not Jacuzzi toilets then what for a DIY? Help requested Jan 25, 2009
Toilet Forum discussions Another Toilet Flange help request Jan 17, 2009

Share This Page