Recessed Lighting Options for Kitchen

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Nelsonba

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Hello! I’m looking at adding remodel 4 inch recessed lighting to my kitchen and I’m a bit lost with all the choices that are now available. I’m considering LED. Any reason not to? Should I go with halogen housing and use LED bulbs or would it be best to use LED housing if I want to go the LED route? I’d like them to be dimmable, if that matters. Any products that you like/prefer? Thanks!
 

Jadnashua

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Not all LED's are dimmable, so be careful of what you choose. If the kitchen ceiling above is an attic, you'd probably be better off cutting a bit more ceiling out and using ICAT (Insulation contact, air tight) boxes rather than the conventional remodel fixtures. This can be problematic if the ceiling has a texture, though. Other than that, don't have any personal experience that can help you.
 

FullySprinklered

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Installing can lights in a remodel situation is an art. Here's the deal: 6" cans are too big for residential installation most of the time. Ok in a larger room sometimes, but for general lighting in a medium to small room the 5" is better. This is where things get interesting. If you intend to use 4" cans for general lighting, you have to put enough of them in the right places, where light is needed, and not worry about dead corners where lighting is less needed. The clincher is, you can't put them exactly where you will be working around the ceiling joists. Sometimes, the joists will change direction halfway across the room. Sometimes there's a bathroom above the kitchen, or perhaps ductwork, other drains and water pipes, service cable or God knows what else. If there's an attic above, everything is much easier.

Anyway, once you figure out were all the joists are and where all the obstructions are, then you can do the layout. There will be more fixtures of a smaller size and fewer fixtures of a larger size. Fewer is better for getting the spacing done properly for a more regular and even pattern. The other method is to cluster smaller fixtures where the light is most needed.

The last set of can lights I did, the customer had LED bulbs for them. Large basement bedroom, not a kitchen. The lighting looked really good. Eight fixtures in a 14X30 room. 5 inchers.
 
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FullySprinklered

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Oh, by the way, the LED bulbs were an after thought on the part of the customer. They actually would not fit, but I removed the step baffle and just left the trim ring and that worked. Customer liked it: keep the LEDs and lose the baffle. Done.

Dimming is done at the switch and the fixture itself has no bearing on that as far as I know for a common ordinary can. The fixtures that come as a complete package with LED included would be a different animal. Read the box.
 
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Nelsonba

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Why do you say 6 inch is too big? From an asthetic perspective? Wondering how many lights at the different sizes I would need. Here is a rough layout of the kitchen if that helps. The circles represent the existing lighting. The one at the top is a recessed light. The other is just a regular surface mounted light, which could be changed, obviously.
Book1.jpg
 

FullySprinklered

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The six-inch has a commercial feel to it. I'll be back. Got to go p/u the spouse and goo-goo the grandkids.
 

FullySprinklered

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I'm back. The picture helps, but I have questions about it. Where are the doorways/windows, how big is the existing can and is it over the sink?

My kitchen is 10x14 and I have nine 5" cans on three switches. There's at least 3 too many cans. I wasn't consulted. My wife and son in law masterminded that job.
Here's some things to remember in doing the layout:

If you have switched lights in place, 25% of the work is already done.

It's better to have a plan and change it than to not have a plan. So, get up a ladder and put post-it notes where you want your lights. If it falls on a joist, you can move it over as little a three inches to place the fixture and shift the other lights around to match things up.

Tentatively locate the ceiling joists by removing the existing light fixture and finding wood. In a perfect world, the joists would be spaced evenly on 12 or 16 or 20 inch centers depending on several factors; regular boards, trusses, etc. You may be able to measure at the electrical box adjacent to the existing light to mark the ceiling joists all across the room. I double check the joist locations by driving a little bitty drill bit into the ceiling sheetrock right next to the crown molding, if there is any. Move your post-it notes around to stay between the joists and produce an eye-pleasing pattern, and to put light were you need it. Make something line up or square up with something somewhere in the lay-out, and it'll look nicer. I hope that made sense. If you have to relocate one can, you will have to scoot the rest of them around a bit to maintain even spacing. Try to make all placements look as if they were part of a plan.

Other considerations:

Put the cans 12" off the face of the wall cabinets. They function better if they shine on the countertop and not on the back of your head.

Dimmers are your friend.

Be aware of what's upstairs; plumbing, service cable, hvac ducting, etc, and be careful.

Poke a hole in the center of your prospective can location and stick a long screwdriver or similar rigid metal tool up in the bay and swing an arc around and feel for wood, piping and so forth.

I used to ask decorators where I should place the fixtures and they typically gave me the deer in the headlights look. They could probably tell me where they would like to put them, but didn't know where they actually could put them.

Dollar.
 
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Jadnashua

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Again, some LED bulbs cannot be safely dimmed or they will burn up. So, while you can use them in a fixture (if they fit), you may not be able to dim them unless they are designed to be dimmed. Other than that, it's your choice. A dedicated LED lamp fixture may only have one choice of lamp, and make sure that you like the color temperature it produces. LED color temperatures range from cool white to daylight (and colors, if you're into that).
 

Nelsonba

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I've updated the floor plan with doors, windows, and cabinets. Cabinets are in green. The existing light is above the sink and it's 6 inch. The other existing light in the center of the room is on a separate switch, which I'd like to use to control the new cans. Right now that fixture has four 50 watt GU10 halogens. So assuming I can tie into the old fixture box, I think I'm good on the switch. I just need to put in a dimmer. Speaking of connecting to the existing wiring... I've got 1930s construction. So I'm dealing with a box that likely needs to be replaced. I'm also dealing with drywall that was installed over the top of plaster and lathe which I know might pose some challenges with getting the housing clips to engage. I'm hoping I can knock out the plaster above without damaging the drywall to make room for the clips. Lots of fun. So.. questions...

1) Can I get away with four 5 inch cans assuming I leave the one above the sink and leave some type of fixture in the existing center?

2) What's the best way of dealing with that junction box? Joists run the long way (From top of plan to bottom). Assuming I need to cut a channel to snake wire to the other joist cavities, should I do it around the box and replace the box with a new construction version? Images attached - Lots going on. I guess another option would be to replace the existing center box with another can light.
Kitchen Layout-page-001.jpg
IMG_6187.JPG
IMG_6188.JPG
IMG_6189.JPG
 

Jadnashua

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Most of the manufacturers that sell these things have information about coverage depending on the bulb type, ceiling to the area you want illuminated distance, and fixture diameter. If you goal is even illumination, that should be your first study. Getting task lighting verses general lighting calls for different plans. Mixing them up can ruin the effect. For example, the things often can utilize either a spot or a flood version of a bulb, and some will also allow a plain A19 bulb; each will give a different pattern and illumination level. The type of reflector in the fixture can make a difference, too. There are a lot of variables, and changing one can make the difference between you liking it or not. But, I highly suggest you look at the manufacturer's site. IOW, general rules may not meet your needs or desires, and you haven't indicated your overall goal adequately.

Some of the places that sell the stuff (not a big box store) have lighting designers that can help. Depending on what you are buying, it might be free but at least they can probably point you to the information that you'd need to do it right.
 

FullySprinklered

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The wood-lath plaster is a deal breaker for me. The BX cable would be the cherry on top.

How would under cabinet lights work out for you?
 
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Nelsonba

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Planning to do under cabinet lighting as well. I've also considering some type of track lighting instead of recessed.
 

FullySprinklered

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I would go ahead with the UCL and see what it looks like. The track might be the sensible solution if you need more light, but I'm not a big fan. Working with the old plaster is difficult and I can pretty much guarantee it won't be fun. Sawsall blades last about five seconds in plaster before the sharpness is destroyed, and the blades tend to grab the lath and shake it instead of cutting, tearing out chunks of plaster that will have to be patched.

If you need a little more hell in your life to make it all worthwhile, go for it.
 

Cacher_Chick

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What is above the kitchen? Access from above would make the job entirely different.

They make carbide hole saws just for the purpose of installing recessed cans in plaster.
 

FullySprinklered

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What is above the kitchen? Access from above would make the job entirely different.

They make carbide hole saws just for the purpose of installing recessed cans in plaster.
I actually own one of those which someone gave me. They found it to be useless for the same reason that I find it useless. Without attic access, you can never be sure exactly where to cut the hole. I always hope for consistent joist spacing and a minimum of structural surprises, but you can't really count on it. Repairing the misses in plaster would be less fun than the same in just sheetrock.
The clips on the remodel cans are geared to latching on to one thickness of sheetrock, by the way.
Regular cans can usually be adjusted to a greater thickness by loosening the screws with a short screwdriver and dropping the can down flush with the ceiling. Not something that comes up often with me.
 
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Woo Lighting

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Lighting is a significant element to the comfort and function level of any kitchen. A good kitchen lighting plan should include the placement of a variety of lighting sources and types.

Kitchen recessed lighting offers a clean look and can be used throughout the room space.

• It’s ideal for countertops and island bars.

• Use it for general lighting in open floor plan areas.

• Highlight counter areas, stovetops and other details for visual interest.
 

FullySprinklered

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Time marches on. I've been installing LED lights instead of the remodel cans I've always used. The cans are looking more like dodo birds. The last set I installed I was able to snap the new fixture in the same location as the old surface fixture. It was so thin that it fit right up just by removing the metal box from the strap. Has a little junction box as part of the assembly that you shove up in the hole before you snap in the light. There's another one I've used that more resembles a traditional can light but much smaller. The springs on these things will take your finger off. These lights are color adjustable, four choices.
 

Jadnashua

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To get best effect, you need to know the height of the ceiling, the distance from the ceiling that you want to be evenly illuminated, and the beam spread of the fixture and bulb you choose. Then, and only then, can you determine if the coverage will be fairly even and to your liking. Bulbs come in all sorts of spread from narrow spots to flood, and in between. By knowing the angles and the distance needed to to surface that needs to be lit, you can get a good idea of how well it will work.

The smaller the fixture, generally, the narrower the coverage, regardless of the beam. The higher the ceiling to where you want it evenly lit, the more the light spreads out.
 

purduephotog

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Time marches on. I've been installing LED lights instead of the remodel cans I've always used. The cans are looking more like dodo birds. The last set I installed I was able to snap the new fixture in the same location as the old surface fixture. It was so thin that it fit right up just by removing the metal box from the strap. Has a little junction box as part of the assembly that you shove up in the hole before you snap in the light. There's another one I've used that more resembles a traditional can light but much smaller. The springs on these things will take your finger off. These lights are color adjustable, four choices.

Yep, these are rather interesting. Typically they use edge lit LEDs in a 'tape' that wrap around the outside. That makes them thinner, but... they're not so thermally stable.

Now I've been looking at and working with high end LEDs. I know good and bad, and the stuff I worry about are like the first gen LED fixtures CREE made- WAY over designed.

I can't wait until you can find some chips called "SunLike" made by Seoul in fixtures. They make them in 3030 and 5050, as well as some COBs; the COBs appear to be a perfect retrofit for some generic HomeDepot fixtures. I'm going to buy some and test them out by putting them in.

Anyways, back to the edge lit- they (typically) have cheap LED drivers, which makes even more stability issues. I've not seen many with an honest efficiency report but there are loads of manufacturers cashing in on a cheap chunk of plastic and some LED tape.

Watch out for flicker in newer ones. It can make people ill.
 
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