Need Help for setting up Fleck 2900S and Noise solution.

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by car2carl, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    I bought a water softener Fleck 2900 2" Commercial Water Softener, 80,000 Grains with 3200NXt timer and 2" Meter and was just installed in my house by my contractor as part of the contract. It come with 13" x 54" tank and 18"x40" brine tank.
    The reason I choose this system was the supply water to my house is 2" pipe so my contractor asked me to purchase the same size system with supply pipe size from the city. ( I don't know this was the correct advice )
    Now I have many problem to operate this system correctly .
    Since the system come with 2" meter and the meter can't count accurately as we just open 1 or 2 faucets the meter won't count down. found out the meter accuracy is +/- 3gpm. I need to fully open 4 faucets for the meter to show the meter working.
    And I will forget to use the meter to set up my system just realize the system I choose was wrong.
    Now I have to setup base on estimate water usage per day for about 450 gallon and 11Gpg hardness from city and insignificant iron.
    I have been reading through this forum and others and many of Gary Slusser's post. and I might know to set my system regeneration day base on the capacity and SFR .
    the problem is I don't know how to setup the regeneration cycle time correctly.
    Back wash time was set 10 minutes
    Brine and slow rinse 1 hour
    Rapid rinse 8 minutes
    Brine refill 3 minutes
    And this system is so noisy during the regeneration about 2 am and when it change the cycle it create hammering to my plumbing system I believe.
    I try to cut the cycle time and safe salt if necessary and but don't have clue the correct cycle time base of my city water condition which is generally good/fair as drinking water.
    thanking you in advance if someone in this forum can help.
    Auggy
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    There may be a cheap and easy solution. Your plumber was correct for code reasons to ask for the same pipe size. UPC does not allow for a reduction in pipe size due to potential flow velocity issues. The internal manifold is only 1-1/2" on that system, but since the pipe is inside of the tank, the potential for pipe vibration, excessive noise, etc, is not an issue. Water velocity can exceed 8 FPS inside of the system with no problem. All that being said, I need a picture of your system to determine the correct way to modify the system for better meter accuracy. There are dozens of meters companies use on the 2900, some are repairable in the field for better low flow accuracy. As to the drain noise, that system should have a 4 to 5 GPM DLFC button depending on water temperature. Can you confirm or check the water flow to the drain? Also, be sure to run the drain pipe in 3/4" PVC, this will reduce the velocity, and usually the sound. Lets see a picture of the unit, with details on the meter so we can help you out.
  3. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead
    I really appreciate for your reply
    I have meter from fleck 2" plastic meter paddle with electronic sensor
    I had 3/4" PVC drain line and was taken out yesterday as I saw your post that suggest to reduce some L (90 degree) and plan to change to 1" using long elbow from Conduit PVC Pipe in order avoid sharp turn.
    and the hammering from cycle change I have installed water hammer arrestor 1" about and the location is about 6ft before the system it seems doesn't work and I tried to change with expansion tank what do you think ?
    and just found out that that there is marker writing from my supplier at DFLC fitting 5.0 and 2.0 from BFLC .
    attached is the picture of my system
    2900Fleck.jpg

    thank you again
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Unfortunately, that meter does not accept any modifications that I am aware of for making it accurate at lower flow rates. The brass version of that meter has an internal sleeve available that makes its low flow accuracy much better. The company that sold it should have considered a slightly different design to accomodate code and your actual needs. You could use the Clack 2" Stainless meter, but that only gets you down to 1.5 GPM for accuracy. Your only other option now is to use a smaller meter. If it were me, I would use the Fleck 1-1/2" inline turbine meter (used on the 2850SXT and 9500SXT). It uses the same turbine as the 7000, and while its specs may not look very good on paper, in the field it is highly accurate at low flows. Technically you may not be to code, but in all reality, it will work fine. It can flow 40 GPM easily. 61560 plus the correct adapters, available with threaded of sweat connectors. You will also need the correct meter cable. meter.jpg

    As to the water hammer, I am at a loss assuming your plumbing is correct, the flow rate of 5 GPM to the drain should not cause a significant hammer, but... what is your water pressure?
  5. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead

    The water hammer is not caused by the drain but by the supply line 2" when it is changing cycle, I believe for bypass during regeneration. So 2 different issue and the noise during backwash and rapid rinse (both is the loudest), I have change drain line to 1" and is still not help.
    I think the noise come from the Valve,
    About the meter I gave up so I need help to set up the regeneration cycle time and I assumed my system is overkill for residential, can you give your opinion?
    my supply line pressure is 75psi as I have PRV installed.
    Thank you
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    According to your numbers, every 8 days should be fine. You can set the "Regeneration day override" to 8 in the nxt, leave the meter settings etc functioning, just change the override to 8 and you should be fine. Double check your pressure, especially at night in Los Angeles, pressures exceeding 200 PSI is common. PRV or not, check the pressure in the middle of the night to be sure.
  7. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    I have checked many times but was not in the middle of the night, so you think that my PRV might not work if the supply from the city reached 200psi, so far I trust my PRV 24/7 I will check again tonight.
    I don't know what to do to solve this hammering issue and how to reduce the noise from the valve especially during backwash and rapid rinse.
    I want to know about backwash time if I can cut to 5 min instead of 10min
    also rapid rinse become 5 minutes what is the big issue for cutting the backwash and rapid rinse in my condition.

    since I have noise issue I try to cut the cycles time as much possible.
    I might have complain from my neighbor one day.

    for Brine and slow rinse is set to 60min, just curios where this number come from? as the brine will be out in 3 to 5 minutes

    Brine refill is 3 min I can't touch it , base on 2,5cu feet resin and 6lbs salt/cu feet with assumption 3lbs salt dissolve with 1gallon water (if this formula still valid) I use Morton http://www.mortonsalt.com/for-your-...ing-salts/68/morton-system-saver-two-pellets/


    This water softener noise will be big issue if my neighbor complain.
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Excessive noise is usually caused by high pressure on these systems, as well as hammer between cycles. Try setting your pressure down to 60 PSI and see how it works. It is unlikely you will notice any difference in the pressure inside your house. Backwash 5 minutes, fast rinse 5 minutes, that is fine. 60 minutes is the normal amount of time, properly set, your system should remove the salt drom the brine tank in about 15 minutes. If it drawing too fast, pressure may be your problem. Have you tried a different pressure gauge? Your system has a 1700 brine, it should have a 1600 brine system. Your injector is too big for that size of a tank. Technically, it should be a smaller injector system. What color injector does it have? Depressurize the system, remove the two stainless screws holding on the diamond shaped stainless plate, underneath is the injector. It is a round colored piece of plastic. The color will indicate the size. The salt you are using is fine.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    car2carl, how many people?

    Number of bathrooms?

    Any shower with more than one regular showerhead?

    Why 2" water line?

    I say the control valve is way too large for your 2.5 cuft softener and... 2.5 cuft of resin (15 gpm constant SFR) is way too small if your peak demand water flow actually requires a 2" water line.

    If I were you I would be going back to the builder or his dealer that sized, sold and probably installed the unit and have things made right at their expense.

    You can direct him to this forum.

    Without the proper meter based on small gpm water use like drawing a glass of water appliances like clothes and dish washers and toilets, the softener will never give you satisfactory service while it uses large volumes of water to regenerate and the valve creates unacceptable levels of noise.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  10. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead
    The pressure I checked last midnight was 75psi I'm glad that my PRV still working, I will look and check the system by your instruction in the afternoon and will let you know later. Thank you and I have tried 60psi last week the hammering was still occurred.

    Gary thank you for your post

    6 people live in the house and 8 Bathrooms
    1 Jet Shower, and 1 Rain Shower. (rarely use)
    The approval design from the city was 2"
    Basically I can't change the the plumbing system as I approved the design when it was permitted.

    The water softener system I purchased was separated from contract , My GC only include the installation. I wished I had time to catch your site before make decision.
    I'm stuck with this annoying system even this system is functional and I setup 10 days for regeneration without problem.
    I calculated base on days usage and read from the city meter, that our usage is 400gal max/day (less than half unit the actual read from city meter), at the day when I calculated I ask all family member to do complete shower and washing hair included ,doing laundry, house cleaning turn of irrigation system. I had to do this method as I found out the meter from water softener was not working accurately , Yes I did not count peak demand. (correct me if I made wrong calculation)
    I'm planning to install expansion tank about 1 foot before 2900S valve, will it help eliminate hammering? for additional info, from 2" PRV to the system is about 8 foot but it pass 8 elbows

    Thank you
  11. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    This is a common problem with larger houses. While code and inspectors require certain design parameters, this is not always feasible. Your system is close to proper for your application. Some people dont understand codes, permitting, licenses, etc, or how to work with them. Other companies who arent very familiar with the problems that can arise in large house and the need for a control that can handle not only high flow (8 bathrooms) and the more common low flow. The other solution would have been to install (2) 7000 valves with 1-1/2" connectors. This will get you by most inspectors since the plumbing connectors are 1-1/2", so the total square inches of plumbing is 3.5", slightly larger than a single 2" pipe of 3.14". Regadless, the hammer should not be that prevelant. The 2" 2900s valve opens and closes fairly quickly, but not like a solenoid valve, more like the speed of a ball valve. Did you check the actual flow rate to make sure the DLFC button is installed correctly? I would recommend a 4 gpm button for a 13" tank softener with normal temperature water. most of the water in the LA area is fairly cold so you should be fine. A 2" feed pipe should easily handle a change in flow of only 4 gpm without massive hammering. Let us know what you find for the injector assembly. This should have nothing to do with the hammering, just the brine draw rate. It should take 10-15 minutes to draw the brine. The DLFC on the 2900s is inside the large brass piece on the right side of the valve, next to the black injector body. It is usually 1" x 3/4" brass, you can unthread it from the valve and look inside to see what the button size is. You should be able to read the numbers if the button is in the proper direction. Can you post a video of the water hammer and noise? Good luck.
  12. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead

    I'm glad you the expert tell me step by step to check my system, I have yellow color nozzle and I think right now I'm in doubt with outside marking 5.0 on my DFLC Fitting that I told you earlier.
    I took out that fitting and look inside the black rubber button there are number on it (really small need magnifier to read it) . if I can read correctly
    at 12 o'clock is 5 0 0
    at 3 o'clock is 4g or 49 (not clear)
    at 6 o'clock is F
    is this nozzle create the noise sinceI have pressure push to the small button which is not attached tightly to the fitting so create vibration?

    I did think about the Dual system at first time but really don't have space at all.
    Thank you again.
  13. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    That would be a 5.0 gpm DLFC. You can safely reduce that to a 4.0 GPM DLFC. button.jpg Unsaved Project Large e-mail view.jpg Someone in an earlier post had asked about pressure vs. flow rate on the DLFC, here is an old diagram showing how they work under different pressures.

    You have a yellow 1700 injector assembly. It should be a 1600. The 1700 is typically used on 16" and larger tanks. Replacing the injector requires the brine valve and the injector assembly to both be replaced, and you would need to convert the brine tube at some point to 3/8". Sizing the injector requires all sorts of calculations etc, but it is usually simplified by using a chart. I would recommend a blue 1600 series injector for your application. Here is a link to the manual for more information.
    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/2900s%20Service%20Manual%2041689.pdf
    Hope this helps.
  14. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead

    I manage to reduce little bit noise for back wash cycle, I made 3/4" coupling from rubber hose (5inch long) and install hose nipple after the DFLC and clamped
    The other end I installed to 1" drain line with long elbow.so no sharp 90 degree.
    The source of noise during backwash was from this DFLC, I felt the vibration why didn't they just make solid DFLC Fitting permanently without rubber button inside.
    I had experience with my hose bib when I turn on the faucet and it's rubber at stem in bad condition it create noise to pipe but still full function to shut off the faucet.
    I replaced the rubber and the noise was gone.
    the noise from Brine and slow rinse is normal
    I still have Hammering problem during rapid rinse which I felt vibration in my supply line to the PRV. and boom sound after brine refill finish

    Honestly I have invited professional plumber but they can't give me any solution as they are not familiar with this valve.

    I have Yellow nozzle in 1700 system right now and base on manual you are referring to the chart show that yellow is #3C and my inlet pressure is 75psi
    so the drawing flow rate is about 1.2gpm and I have 6 gallon brine and will be drawn in 5 minutes so it's about right as I said in earlier post.
    and i just found out that slow rinse rate flow is about 1.55gpm
    and total flow to drain in draw is about 2.7gpm ( I don't know what does it mean?)
    I hope I read that chart correctly.
    and you think my system is too fast to draw the brine for 2.5 cu ft resin (normal rate is 15 minutes) so 5 minutes is not enough time for resin interaction with brine? and I don't know basic work for resin and brine/slow rinse time requirement.
    can you let me know ?
    So far because of you I know my system more and better and I didn't care when I purchase and I just need soft water for my house and have problem apparently.
    Thank you again.
    btw. I am still trying to resolve this hammering problem.
  15. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The DLFC needs to accomodate different pressures and flow at the same rate. The diagram shows how higher presures will cause the button to throttle down the water, thus causing a similar flow rate regardless of pressure. The only way a solid drilled flow control works is if the pressure is known and is constant. The "boom" sound after drine refill is because of the BLFC (Brine line floe control). It is a spring loaded valve that shuts off suddenly, and with it being a 1700 series with a 2.0 GPM flow control button inside (the same style of button that is used in the DLFC), this sudden and nearly instant shut off of a flow of 2 gpm can be somewhat violent. I would recommend converting the system to a 1600 series brine sysstem, and adjust the flow for a 10-15 minute brine draw using the charts provided in the manual for your application. The maximum refill rate of the 1600 series is 1 gpm, but you can use a .5, .25, or even a .125 DLFC button. 1 GPM is the normal and most common size for the 1600 series brine system. (Actually, I prefer the 1650 series, it is an all plastic brine system instead of the brass version, slightly less expensive, lasts longer).

    The total flow during the brine draw is the amount of water the system can push through the injector, plus the amount of water it draws from the brine tank. This decreases to only the amount of water pushed through the injector once the brine tank water is gone, this is why the cycle is technically called "brine and slow rinse". It is two cycles in one.
  16. car2carl

    car2carl New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    los angeles
    Dittohead

    Thank you again for your explanation but just got confuse as you said " The maximum refill rate of the 1600 series is 1 gpm, but you can use a .5, .25, or even a .125 DLFC button" do you mean BFLC button?
    and I agree with you 2 gpm "can be somewhat violet" but this just solve my "boom" and perhaps I can increase Brine and water efficiency and need to change to 1650 to system assembly ( Including Injector ) not just brine the brine valve. Do I need to replace my DFLC button too? how to relate DFLC calculation if I replace 1650 Brine System Assembly?
    I'm just wandering after I solve the noise and hammering problem I have to micro manage my cycle time to achieve high efficiency. at the end I might give up with this valve (meter+noise+inefficient).

    Thank you very much.
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The 1650 goes with the 1650 injector assembly. I would ask the person who bought it to swap the injector system out to the correct size for a 13" tank, which would be the 1650 series, not the 1700 series. The BLFC on your current 1700 is 2.0 GPM. The 1700 uses the same buttons as the DLFC on your system. So in theory, your BLFC (brine line flow control) could be swapped out to a .6, .8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 2.0, 2.4, and so on. The 1600/1650 uses a much smaller button and is available in .125, .25, .5, and 1.0 flow rates.

    For the drain line flow control, I would recommend changing that to a 4 gpm button. The current button (5 GPM) will work, but is a little higher than needed, and the smaller button may assist with the noise issue. Then again, it may also make it worse. It wouldnt hurt to try.

    Hope this helps.

    If you are in the Los Angeles area, I know a lot of local service technicians that would be glad to help you out for a very reasonable rate.
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