Need advice about expansion tank

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tess

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*This is a water pressure tank, not an expansion tank. I wasn't able to modify the caption so am doing it here. I had been given wrong information earlier on in the day.

Hey Guys

Am just looking for some advice from those that know more about these things..

Over the weekend all water stopped coming out of my taps. I panicked and called the first person I found on google. They came out yesterday and replaced the pressure switch and all seemed to be back to normal. The thing that concerns me is that without telling me why they said I needed a new expansion tank ASAP.. I asked what was wrong with it, as it's only a 4 year old house, but he didn't seem to have much of an answer. He just said the tank made the switch go bad but there weren't any leaks. He also said he didn't put any air in even though it needed it because 'it wouldn't matter'...

Today I contacted an expert on justanswer, sent them lots of pictures, told him the story and he believes they may be trying to get me to buy a new tank although I don't need one. I'm a young single mom and don't know much these things and have sadly been taken advantage of before.

The one thing the guy on justanswer advised was that I needed to make sure there is enough air in the tank as when I sent him the pictures he saw the cap was missing from the little valve on top of the tank.

The Tank is called Pro-Source.

Any input would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to buy a new tank if I don't think it's imperative at this time.

Tess
 
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Reach4

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  1. How long does your pump run each time (minimum)?
  2. Is the pump down the well (submersible) or up where you can see it?
  3. Do you want directions on checking/setting the tank air pre-charge? You can probably find that info readily. The answer to #2 affects the procedure.
 

tess

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  1. How long does your pump run each time (minimum)?
  2. Is the pump down the well (submersible) or up where you can see it?
  3. Do you want directions on checking/setting the tank air pre-charge? You can probably find that info readily. The answer to #2 affects the procedure.
Oh gosh - I wish I knew how to answer these questions.. I did take some pictures today that I will post. The justanswer guy was telling me how to do your #3 but it sounded like something I could likely find challenging. Do you think that a 4 year old well that isn't leaking and since the replacement of the pressure switch everything seems back to normal could really need replacing? I'll upload the files now.
 

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Cacher_Chick

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If the well pump runs every time you flush the toilet or run a sink, the tank is very likely to be shot.

A bad tank will cause the pressure switch to fail & shorten the life of the pump.
 

Jadnashua

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Your pressure tank acts like a power reservoir...by pumping water into it, if it is working properly, it compresses a rubber bladder, which will store some water under pressure for the next time you need it. If the bladder in the tank is shot or underinflated, every time you need some water, the pump has to run, which often means a lot of on/off. That can damage the pump, and burn the contacts of the pressure switch.

So you need to check the pressure tank.
1. Shut off the pump
2. Open a faucet and wait until the water stops running - leave it open
3. Find the Schrader valve (like on a tire) at the tank, and check the pressure with a tire pressure gauge.
4. If it is low, and water does not come out, use a bicycle pump and pump it up until it is 1-2# less than the low pressure on your pump switch (if say 30/50, you'd set it to about 28-29#). If water DOES come out, the tank is shot. If it won't hold pressure, the tank is shot or the valve is bad, which MIGHT be able to be fixed with a new core (same as with a tire).
5. If the tank now is holding pressure, shut the open valve, and turn on the pump.
 

tess

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If the well pump runs every time you flush the toilet or run a sink, the tank is very likely to be shot.

A bad tank will cause the pressure switch to fail & shorten the life of the pump.
when you say 'runs' could you elaborate? It doesn't sound any different than it has since I first moved in when the house was brand new.
 

Jadnashua

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The pump should NOT run every time you open a faucet, only when the water stored under pressure in the tank drops to the cuton pressure of the switch. SO, say it was pressurized to 50psi, the pump would stay off until the pressure dropped to 30psi, then the pump would turn on. The amount of water stored in the tank depends on two things: the size of the tank, and the pressure in the bladder.
 

tess

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Your pressure tank acts like a power reservoir...by pumping water into it, if it is working properly, it compresses a rubber bladder, which will store some water under pressure for the next time you need it. If the bladder in the tank is shot or underinflated, every time you need some water, the pump has to run, which often means a lot of on/off. That can damage the pump, and burn the contacts of the pressure switch.

So you need to check the pressure tank.
1. Shut off the pump
2. Open a faucet and wait until the water stops running - leave it open
3. Find the Schrader valve (like on a tire) at the tank, and check the pressure with a tire pressure gauge.
4. If it is low, and water does not come out, use a bicycle pump and pump it up until it is 1-2# less than the low pressure on your pump switch (if say 30/50, you'd set it to about 28-29#). If water DOES come out, the tank is shot. If it won't hold pressure, the tank is shot or the valve is bad, which MIGHT be able to be fixed with a new core (same as with a tire).
5. If the tank now is holding pressure, shut the open valve, and turn on the pump.

Thanks for your reply.. I unfortunately don't even have a tire pressure gauge and this sounds like something I would need someone to help me with. Would you recommend getting a second opinion? Would you suggest that I contact a well company or would a plumber be able to check these things out also? I also think the tank is still under warranty.
 

Jadnashua

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If you own a car, you should have a tire pressure gauge! Anyone around you have a bicycle? They'll probably have a pump. If you only have a gauge, I'd at least check the pressure in the tank. If, when you take the cap off and try to use the gauge, water comes out, the tank is shot. The rest, you won't know until you try to pump it up. Again, though, you need to turn the pump off then open a valve until the water stops flowing, otherwise, the air pressure will just be the water pressure, and that won't tell you much. A well guy or a plumber could probably diagnose the tank and fix it. A plumber may not want to deal with the pump, if that has a problem.
 

Jadnashua

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If you own a car, you should have a tire pressure gauge! Anyone around you have a bicycle? They'll probably have a pump. If you only have a gauge, I'd at least check the pressure in the tank. If, when you take the cap off and try to use the gauge, water comes out, the tank is shot. The rest, you won't know until you try to pump it up. Again, though, you need to turn the pump off then open a valve until the water stops flowing, otherwise, the air pressure will just be the water pressure, and that won't tell you much. A well guy or a plumber could probably diagnose the tank and fix it. A plumber may not want to deal with the pump, if that has a problem.
 

tess

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If you own a car, you should have a tire pressure gauge! Anyone around you have a bicycle? They'll probably have a pump. If you only have a gauge, I'd at least check the pressure in the tank. If, when you take the cap off and try to use the gauge, water comes out, the tank is shot. The rest, you won't know until you try to pump it up. Again, though, you need to turn the pump off then open a valve until the water stops flowing, otherwise, the air pressure will just be the water pressure, and that won't tell you much. A well guy or a plumber could probably diagnose the tank and fix it. A plumber may not want to deal with the pump, if that has a problem.

I know - I should have one. I have always just gotten my tires checked at my local gas station so never bought one. I guess I'm just concerned that the guy that came out is trying to get me to buy something I may not need. He didn't seem interested when I asked him about the warranty also as one would think that if it does need replacing then he would look into that for me. I guess I'm just going to get someone else out to take a look before dropping that much money. I wish I were more handy in these things but this is my first house having lived in apts all my life up until 5 years ago.

From what you know about this could it just be that the switch went bad or are those things that are supposed to last much longer than 5 years? I also have a picture of the old switch would it help if I took a picture of that and uploaded it? You can see the area that is messed up.
 

tess

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  1. How long does your pump run each time (minimum)?
  2. Is the pump down the well (submersible) or up where you can see it?
  3. Do you want directions on checking/setting the tank air pre-charge? You can probably find that info readily. The answer to #2 affects the procedure.
your first question - does that mean like after I flush a toilet how long it takes for it to fill up again? I'm sorry I know I must sound so stupid but I just never had to deal with any of these things before and it's all so new to me.
 

Jadnashua

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The pressure switch often makes a click when it turns on. You did not answer the question if the switch turns on (activating the pump) each time you open a faucet. If it does, it is almost certainly an issue with the pressure tank. A tire pressure gauge is WAY cheaper than a service call, even if you add an inexpensive bicycle tire pump. If that doesn't resolve your issue, then you're probably out of your depth, and a professional is called for.

Depending on the size of the pressure tank, you should often be able to use 5-10 gallons of water before the pump has to turn on. Turning a pump on frequently, and for a short period of time wears on both the pump and the pressure switch. A pump likes to run some minimum amount of time, and if the tank isn't working, it needs to run much more frequently.
 

tess

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OK - No I've never heard that noise before. (I wasn't sure what kind of noise it was) I'm completely clueless when it comes to things like this. I do appreciate you guy's answering me though. I posted earlier on another web-site and was just answered with a bunch of people telling me I was making up stuff to get something for free (which could not be further from the truth) I'm just looking for people that may give me insight so I can get some kind of grasp of how these things work, or are supposed to. :)
 

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Tanks made by Pentair/StaRite don't have the best reputation, they are sold by Home Depot, Sears & maybe Lowes. If I'm reading the date code correctly, that tank was made in 2002, so it very well may be bad. Repairing these tanks by installing another bladder is challenging.

What do I mean by bad? These tanks have a very thin bladder, like a balloon that seperates the water from the air, when the bladder inflates and deflates due to water pressure, it drags against the weld seam on the inside of the tank and developes a tear. The water and air then commingle, the water absorbs the air which then causes the pump to short cycle or come and go off more often than it should.

Do you notice your water pressure fluctuates or surges when a faucet or shower is running?
Do you hear a rapid clicking coming from the tank area when water is running?

IF you need a new tank, have a Well X Trol WX series installed, they're more money but they are the best tank available.
 
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Reach4

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your first question [
  1. How long does your pump run each time (minimum)?]
- does that mean like after I flush a toilet how long it takes for it to fill up again?

Get a device that can let you measure time to the second. This could be a watch with a second hand. It could be a phone.

Turn on a cold water faucet or yell at your helper to do that. The faucet could be one right under the pressure gauge, or a different one. Watch the pressure gauge. As water flows, the pressure goes down. When you hear the click, the needle on the pressure gauge will stop going down. Do these things:
  1. note how low in pressure the gauge got down to. Take notes.
  2. note the time to the second, or start the timer if using timer.
  3. turn off the faucet yourself or yell to your helper to turn off the faucet
  4. when the pressure switch clicks again, note how how high the pressure went.
  5. note the time to the second, or stop the time.
So you have two pressures, and you can figure out how long the pump ran. You would like that time to be a minute or more. Forty seconds is neither good nor terrible. If the pump stops after 10 seconds, that is not good, but it says something.
 

Widgit Maker

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They came out yesterday and replaced the pressure switch and all seemed to be back to normal. The thing that concerns me is that without telling me why they said I needed a new expansion tank ASAP..
All the discussion here has been about your well pressure tank. That is different than an expansion tank. You have not related anything that would indicate that you have a problem with the well pressure tank.

If you are on a well you don't need an expansion tank.

Go have a cup of tea and don't worry about it. You were correct to not fall for the "expansion tank" scam.
 

tess

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All the discussion here has been about your well pressure tank. That is different than an expansion tank. You have not related anything that would indicate that you have a problem with the well pressure tank.

If you are on a well you don't need an expansion tank.

Go have a cup of tea and don't worry about it. You were correct to not fall for the "expansion tank" scam.
Oh gosh - OK that is what the 'justanswer' guy said it was called so I just figured he knew what he was talking about. Did you see the pictures above? Are those of a pressure tank? Because that's what I thought it was also. The guy that came out to replace the pressure switch said I needed a new water tank but I was suspicious after reading up on it so decided to come here. I am concerned about the cap to the air valve being missing as I don't want any air leaking out. I'm going to call and get a second opinion as I don't know what other options I have. I asked the guy from yesterday if he had put in air and he said he didn't. He also said it wouldn't matter because he heard a 'thud' or something so he knew the tank was bad.
 

tess

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Tanks made by Pentair/StaRite don't have the best reputation, they are sold by Home Depot, Sears & maybe Lowes. If I'm reading the date code correctly, that tank was made in 2002, so it very well may be bad. There is no way to repair this type of tank.

What do I mean by bad? These tanks have a very thin bladder, like a balloon that seperates the water from the air, when the bladder inflates and deflates due to water pressure, it drags against the weld seam on the inside of the tank and developes a tear. The water and air then commingle, the water absorbs the air which then causes the pump to short cycle or come and go off more often than it should.

Do you notice your water pressure fluctuates or surges when a faucet or shower is running?
Do you hear a rapid clicking coming from the tank area when water is running?

IF you need a new tank, have a Well X Trol WX series installed, they're more money but they are the best tank available.
WOW - 2002? The tank was purchased at Lowes in April of 2010. Would they keep something that old in stock? I have noticed what I guess could be called a surge at times, and this is going back way to when I first moved in. I'm going to call the company tomorrow to check on the warranty.
 

Reach4

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I asked the guy from yesterday if he had put in air and he said he didn't. He also said it wouldn't matter because he heard a 'thud' or something so he knew the tank was bad.
That is not as hokey as it sounds. If he knocks on the upper half of the tank, there should be air inside. It will have a different sound than if the tank is full of water.

You can temporarily work around a tank having a bad bladder or diaphram by adding air with a tire pump. Note the timing test I suggested. If the tank is full of water, the time you would measure would be very short.

Note that having working water should take priority over most other things.
 
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