My Tankless Experiment

Discussion in 'Tankless Water Heater Forum' started by Master Plumber Mark, Mar 1, 2007.

  1. I am tired of hearing all the SMOKE and MIRRORS
    talk from the tankless salesman and am presently
    looking to install one in my own home

    then do a little experiment

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I Just went to a training seminar last night on the

    takagi tankless water heaters.......


    that was fun.......
    it felt like being at a three stooges film-fest...

    (but their was free food)


    I was not aware that when you vented one
    out the side of the house just like a power vent
    that they used a Stainless Steel single wall
    vent pipe..... and it died outside just like a
    power vent with a metal Tee with screens on
    both ends .......

    Now the odd thing that the salesman tried to gloss
    over was the fact that the actual temperature of
    the tee and out going gases can hit about
    300 degrees.... folks...you can fry bacon on that!!

    they let you take this out the roof of your house
    in single wall SS pipe too!!

    I think that this temp could set the Attic on fire some day
    or the , bushes or leaves on fire
    on the side of the house....

    I feel you should use double or triple wall flu
    pipe if you want to avoid future problems

    probably most local codes would force tou to beef up that vent pipe...


    Have you ever burnt yourself on a motor cycle muffler
    or a lawnmower muffler???

    We asked what happened if a kid, wife or dog touched
    this hot as hell vent pipe ????


    BRANDING someone on this tee is very possible with the
    side house outlet at about knee height..........

    I was told that is what you got insurance for.....


    skin graphs for the dog, wife, and neighbor kids should all be covered
    by your insurance company......

    no problem

    so I was not too impressed....LOL
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    So I think I will install one in my own home
    and do an on-going experiment on it.....

    Waiting to see if I can get a heavy duty Takagi
    from my supplier then slap it on the wall for
    RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

    I am looking for a couple of small in line gas meters right now..

    then I am gonna hook it up right next to my 75 gallon
    BRAD-FORD WHITE...install a bypass on the plumbing system

    install the small gas meters to both of the heaters

    and do an experiment to see which one works best
    and actually is more economical over a certain time period....???


    I already have a one inch line with a 3/4 outlet less than
    5 feet away...

    I have a full 12 inch tile chimmney going out the roof......
    the vent is easy as pie and will not factor into the R+D

    so it should not be brain surgery to set these up with a bypass

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I presently have a NORTIZ unit new in the box but I dont know how good that brand is...

    model #VP-4-36str would anyone know how good this one is???

    http://www.noritz.com/n069mdv.html its considered middle of the road.... supposed to supply 6.9 gal per minute
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lets see....here is my criteria

    incomming water right now is about 45......

    I got two kids and a very -----HIGH MAINTAINCE WIFE-----

    we have three bathrooms --one bath-tub rarely gets used,

    one is a bath---6ft X36 whirlpool tub- it gets used a lot.

    two kitchen sinks , one dishwasher,

    one laundry and laundry tub


    technically its a 2 1/2 bathoom house......


    again the wife is -----HIGH MAINTIANCE------

    and she is not going to put up with a lot of sh/t.
    so how do you factor the wife into the experiment.?????



    here are the safety instructions for the Nortiz unit I presently have

    http://www.noritz.com/documents/N-069M_N-063SManual.pdf
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
  2. R/T Performance

    R/T Performance New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Saranac,Mi
    I will be watching for results:) .
    I need to get mine out the dam closet and put a nice pantry there:rolleyes:
  3. this might be a few months

    dont hold your breath

    like I mentioined I have not passed this by
    my wife yet.....

    High maintaince.....remember...


    tonight .....I threw this at her and she has said ok.....

    so we are on again.....

    now waiting on the gas metering devices from
    my gas company buddy.......
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
  4. toolaholic

    toolaholic General Contractor Carpenter

    Messages:
    874
    Location:
    Marin Co. Ca.
    One more thing to check?

    I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59
  5. heat on pipe

    the heat on a normal water heater is probably
    around 175 comming off the tank type heater
    I have slightly burned myself while installing
    heaters and touching that pipe... nothing too bad


    Like I already said the Takagi folks claim

    it leaves the house at 275 to 300

    if you get a chance look at the install instructions
    in the link I left on the first post.... for th NORTIZ

    about page 5 is shows a a warning not to touch
    the outgoing pipe on the side of a house
    page #5 shows a lady in serious pain from touching the vent....


    Once this experiment gets launched ,
    I could measure that temp pretty easy


    What if I put a piece of bacon on the hood going out
    the side of the house and wait to see how long it
    took to cook, would that make you happy...???
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
  6. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    I have one of those, bought it from one of the E bay stores for $49, and yes you can find the hydronic pipes in the floor... I wanted to use it to find out which tubes in my solar collectors were plugged up... duh, it reads the temperature off the glass cover.

    Rancher
  7. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,658
    Location:
    .
    Mark, I read the instruction manual you put on the link, saw the illustration of the woman with the huge glowing burnt hand; tell you what, I wouldn't get one. Too hot, and too many restrictions. Too accessible for a disaster with burns.
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,948
    Location:
    New England
    My boiler is over 98% efficient in its condensing low-fire mode. It uses pvc pipe, and you can easily touch the pipes, which are barely warm, and I've got as much hot water as I need...even with my incoming water at nearly freezing this time of the year.

    I still think a tankless is more trouble than it's worth for many of our northern climes where the incoming water is very cold.
  9. kordts

    kordts In the Trades

    Messages:
    551
    Location:
    exurban Chicago
    I have installed both Noritz and Bosch brand tankless. The Noritz used stainless vent pipe. The Bosch was vented with B-vent. Both were sidewall. The noritz was hung in the kitchen and terminated about 12 foot above ground level. The Bosch was in a basement and terminated about a foot above the ground. I was able to keep my hand on both of the vent pipes while they were under full demand, I would guess the temp was about 100 degrees. I didn't check how hot it was outside. I got a nice little cherry on my forehead from a furnace flue pipe two weeks ago, but that was just galvanised.
  10. Cal

    Cal New Member

    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    Mark,

    If you want the BEST ,,,,,,, http://www.foreverhotwater.com/index.php

    This is the one . You do not need to worry about anyone getting burned or any of the other whinny crap that people are spewing about ondemand heaters .

    If you REALLY want to give it a try ,,,,,, Go Rinnai

    Cal

    p.s. the HIGH maintenice wife ,,,,,, it is EXHAUSTING ain't it ??
  11. different brands of tankless

    The high maintaince wife just makes a person stronger
    you either grow a backbone and draw the line
    in the sand or wimper like a whipped poodle and die...


    I just realized from your post how many that their
    are too choose from out there.........I mean tankless heaters

    this is all still presently in the "talk phase"

    still loooking for the small gas apartment meters....

    and waiting to see about the takagi.....

    I have the new Nortiz 6.0 gal on hand now..."


    but with all these differnet brands, and every one
    being different in technology...its surely gonna be hell to
    get one repaired some day..

    just hope that the hi-tech plumber that you bought it from
    is still in business 3 years from now.....
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  12. moggi1964us

    moggi1964us New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    NJ USA
    This kind of system is popular in the UK.

    I installed one of these about 4 years ago before I left the UK and it worked a treat.

    Hot water supply was at the tap in about 6 seconds or so nearest to the boiler and about 15 seconds furthest from the boiler.

    I never had any issues with the heat exhausting as it has a system that captures much of the heat and recycles it. I have stood with my hand next to the vent and felt hot air but not anywhere near able to burn you. The vent was about 24 inches max from the boiler.

    Really efficient and small and perfect for places where having a water tank is no option or a costly/difficult one. They run very quietly (well the two I owned did) and are easy to maintain.

    Can't tell you what the US brands are like but I used Potterton and I think Glow Worm; the Potterton was the last one installed.

    Hope this helps.
  13. kordts

    kordts In the Trades

    Messages:
    551
    Location:
    exurban Chicago
    Mark,
    I installed a Noritz tankless today. The unit cranks out 120 degree water from the factory. The exhaust snaps together, I used one 90, 2 twelve inch straight pipes and a termination birdscreen. I drilled thru the sill plate with a 4-5/8" bit and then silicon caulked around the pipe. When it's on, you can keep your hand on the pipe, the exhaust is hot, but not too hot. Get on the gravy train!
  14. slow going experiment.....

    Thought I would post an update on my little experiment.....


    I got the Nortiz tankless heater 6.9gal per minute unit



    but I have yet to get a decent small gas meter at a decent price...


    finding the time to install it has been an issue too.........



    in our city their are a few plumbers that have jumped on the bandwagon and are planning to
    really go big time into this field.....

    I am being told that they have tried them in their own homes and found that their gas bills have been cut in half
    during the summer months....


    I am wondering 2 things......

    without a meter at the water-heater.....

    does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????


    does anyone out ther have a clue as to the average
    a tankless water heater will use per month???

    going back on e-ba/// to look for a meter tonight.








  15. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Licensed Grump
    Mark, you're gonna need something thats at least 7gpm...anything less and the flow could be a dribble when two showers are going and the dishwasher kicks on (they have built in flow restriction to regulate temps depending on useage)
    I've done some calling on past customers...verdicts in...the gas bill does go down, also my gas co offers a $300 rebate for tankless over 82% efficient.

    I am getting almost as many requests for tankless as regular heaters now. (the price often scares 'em & add the fact that theres more labor for the 3/4" gas feed & vent)
    The SS vent is expensive, and if you can't find a convenient spot thats 4' from any opening outside the desired location for the tankless...you'll do well to "desire" another location inside along the foundation.

    Also...tankless come with a double wall thimble for the heat going through the foundation...keep the height a minimum 18" above grade and leaves wouldn't be a problem.

    Tankless heaters are not condensing, so the vents run hotter...If you really want to sell a customer on efficiency...run an indirect off a condensing boiler...my gas co offers rebates on both of those as well.(up to $1100 for that particular combo)
  16. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Licensed Grump
    does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????

    Thats completely open ended...totally depends on useage.
    could be $15 a month....could be $1500 with a high maintanence wife.
    I just ask my customers to pull out last summers gas bill if they have a boiler...otherwise the most recent bill for comparison.
  17. thank you for the reply

    Bought a 250btu per hour gas meter on e-ba//
    tonight for 79.00......not too bad.....

    I am going to meter my 75 gal gas hot water heater
    and see what it uses for a month or two...




    Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
    cut the mustard....


    gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..




    Well I only paid 50 bucks for it brand new and
    about 50 feet of SS pipeing and other accessories that comes with it in the box....



    I supppose I will sell it to someone with a one bathroom house





    So now I got to haggle with the Takagi rep and see
    if I can get a bigger unit....at a discounted price for personal use....




    a 3 bathroom house...2 kids, spoiled wife...
    and a Mother-in law moving in some day soon ..

    should I just shoot myself??..
    [​IMG]


    any opinions on
    whats the best size and model to go with???





    .
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2008
  18. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36 :D

    With no mother-in-law.
  19. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    Cass, technically you're incorrect, I think he said HIGH maintanence wife.
    They come with a completely different factor value.
  20. R/T Performance

    R/T Performance New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Saranac,Mi
    Well I had my 40 gallon gas hot water heater crap out last month.
    I went with a tank-less electric I found on ****.After agonizing over a high efficient control type gas tank type(The report of the controller bombing out after a year scared me away) or tankless gas(The cost made me fall over).
    I bought a Titan tankless electric(About 250 with overnight shipping).The company is based in Florida and they are actually built here.
    I opened the box to find this little unit (I was like oops that was a waste money it so small no way it works)So off to Lowes to get a 60 amp 220 breaker, 20 ft #6 wire, conduit ,disconnect box and a stick of 1/2 copper.
    Roughly another $200.
    The little small unit was a snap to install.(Even though I disagree with the compression connections)
    Surprisingly it produce a decent volume of very hot water.(it does have a temp knob mine is set 3/4 to the hot no young children here).
    I did have 2 issues the first was no constant temp.
    Called the guy I got it from and he asked well or city water.
    Than explained the .5# negative pressure would turn the unit off and recommend a check valve.(Since I installed it two weeks ago no hot cold issue any more)
    The other is that I only have a 100 amp service.
    And if you do the math.
    Water heater drawing 60 amp+ well 25 amps=85 I have not popped a main but it does dim the lights.
    So 200 amp service to be installed soon
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