Interested in various opinions -- Pro Plumber and Consumer

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Plumbs Away

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Around 1977 when 3.5 GPF was federally enforced for new toilets sold in the US, American Standard, Gerber and Kohler rose to the challenge and their Cadet*, Mount Vernon and Wellworth, respectively, didn't miss a beat. Fast-forward 15 years or so to the 1.6 GPF mandate, and the Big Three failed miserably. The 1.6 GPF Kohler Wellworth was the best of those three, but it was definitely nothing to brag about. I'm just wondering, with the reputation of their name at stake, why they would distribute such an inferior product.

*Prior to 1977, American Standard had a water saver Cadet that was identical to the 5 GPF Cadet, except with a smaller tank. It was lacking in performance, but by 1977, AS got it right with a reengineered bowl.
 

WJcandee

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Agreed. It's mystifying to me as well. Anything with the Ingenium flush, including a very-expensive, very beautiful toilet we installed in our home, was just terrible. Ours was virtually-unusable on its own, necessitating the use of a plunger on virtually all but liquid loads. Replaced it finally with an Original Drake, and that was the end of our buying Kohlers. Not because we didn't think that they would eventually make functioning toilets again, but because I was so incensed that they would knowingly-sell such garbage to the public.
 
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Plumbs Away

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Agreed. It's mystifying to me as well. Anything with the Ingenium flush, including a very-expensive, very beautiful toilet we installed in our home, was just terrible. Ours was virtually-unusable on its own, necessitating the use of a plunger on virtually all but non-liquid loads. Replaced it finally with an Original Drake, and that was the end of our buying Kohlers. Not because we didn't think that they would eventually make functioning toilets again, but because I was so incensed that they would knowingly-sell such garbage to the public.
I bought a Rosario in 1994 and a San Raphael in 2008. Both were perfect aesthetically, but functionally lacking. The Rosario had a basic washdown flush and the San Raphael was Ingenium. Neither ever clogged but they were definitely 2 flushers for other than liquid waste. My aunt has an Ingenium Wellworth -- the last model before they changed the Wellworth to Class 5 -- that flushes much better than my San Raphael did. My guess is that it has something to do with the Wellworth's higher tank.

I have a NOS Wellworth elongated from 1978 in Fresh Green. When I decide to go totally retro, it will be put in service. I did install it long enough to make sure it's totally functional and didn't have any hidden defects or damage. The tank parts were temperamental so I replaced them and it is amazing. Yeah, yeah, it uses 3.5 GPF, but in a sense, I will be "going green." Get it? It will replace the AquaSource in my powder room, which I bought mostly out of curiosity. I can't say enough good about it, but it will be donated to Habitat for Humanity's Re-Store.
 

Jadnashua

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There are two important aspects about any toilet (well, three, if you consider style): how well it is designed, and how well it is actually produced. Kohler, to me anyway, can make some pretty stuff, and it may work fine, but they often end up hung up on the NIH (not invented here) syndrome, and come up with some weird, off-the-way method to make things work just to be different. That can make it a major, sometimes expensive pain to do any maintenance on them. Their parts book looks like a major city's phone book. You better know the exact model number, or you may be in real trouble. AS seems to be able to design stuff, but has some issues building it reliably, especially the stuff they sell to the big box stores. Toto can now be special ordered from some of the big box stores, but based on Terry's comments, he has the fewest complaints and returns for defects of any brand he sells with Toto over the others. Street prices on Toto are often way below the suggested retail...and they are my go to item if I need one.
 

Plumbs Away

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There are two important aspects about any toilet (well, three, if you consider style): how well it is designed, and how well it is actually produced. Kohler, to me anyway, can make some pretty stuff, and it may work fine, but they often end up hung up on the NIH (not invented here) syndrome, and come up with some weird, off-the-way method to make things work just to be different. That can make it a major, sometimes expensive pain to do any maintenance on them. Their parts book looks like a major city's phone book. You better know the exact model number, or you may be in real trouble. AS seems to be able to design stuff, but has some issues building it reliably, especially the stuff they sell to the big box stores. Toto can now be special ordered from some of the big box stores, but based on Terry's comments, he has the fewest complaints and returns for defects of any brand he sells with Toto over the others. Street prices on Toto are often way below the suggested retail...and they are my go to item if I need one.
Further to the attractive Kohlers, I really liked the Pillow Talk and the Trocadero, both now discontinued. I avoided them because they were Power Lite and I really don't like the idea of having to plug my toilet into an electrical outlet.

Another I really liked was the Rochelle. I see them for sale frequently and, from my research, the repair parts are all but impossible to find and, if you are lucky enough to find them, they cost a small fortune. A replacement seat is upwards of $150-$200. There's a white Rochelle on eBay right now for $200, but the seller won't ship.
 

hj

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quote; Another I really liked was the Rochelle.

The main feature with the Rochelle, and Standard's Luxor, was that they would NOT overflow if they got clogged, which made them ideal for upstairs bathrooms. BUT they were water hogs because of the way they had to flush which is why they were discontinued. Both of those, along with the Case 1000/3000 had special seats which means they are expensive to replace.
 

Wallijonn

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I'm just wondering, with the reputation of their name at stake, why they would distribute such an inferior product.

Remember when we would try clamping the over flow tube fill tube that came off the fill valve in an effort to save water? Remember when we would put a brick in the tank to try to save water? Even now one can convert their tank to dual flush assemblies.

They put out an inferior product because they tried to engineer just the tank instead of the bowl. It took Toto to figure out what was really necessary. I know that Eljer had a great toilet that worked, but when American Standard bought them out they couldn't be bothered to continue producing the superior product - probably because all they were interested in was cornering the market and promoting their own product in an effort to maximize profit. It's a malaise that is not isolated solely to the toilet industry - mergers and take overs do not always produce a superior product because the larger entity management typically makes all the decisions, many times sacrificing quality over profits, and the idea that if a great product is produced then later on their sales will dry up, so they make a product based upon the idea that it should be disposable, engineered to have a limited life.

We know that a flowing trap way makes for a better toilet, but manufacturers continue to produce toilets with the sharp angled trap way. Why? Because they don't want to re-tool for a better product. It's the "max profits now, forget about R&D and re-investment and upgrading" philosophy that pervades a lot of industry, not wanting long term sustained profits instead of instant gratification (shareholder profits and management bonuses.) Their problem is that today everything is profit driven and manufacturers fail to realize that there will always be steady growth so long as there is population increases - more houses built means more toilets needed.

Me, I've wondered why commercial grade flush valves (like the tank less toilets at most larger work places) have not been engineered for the home consumer. Why must they be so expensive? Why can't some sort of cover be made that would make them aesthetically pleasing to the home owner? Is it a matter of older plumbing not being able to withstand the shorter duration, and therefore more powerful, flush?
 

Plumbs Away

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Me, I've wondered why commercial grade flush valves (like the tank less toilets at most larger work places) have not been engineered for the home consumer. Why must they be so expensive? Why can't some sort of cover be made that would make them aesthetically pleasing to the home owner? Is it a matter of older plumbing not being able to withstand the shorter duration, and therefore more powerful, flush?
I've seen commercial grade flush valve toilets in residential applications, but they were all in older (pre-1960s) apartments in Chicago, New York and Washington, D.C. I personally wouldn't care for that at home because of the noise, but I understand your point.

I've had a wonderful run of luck with American Standard. I bought a Cadet 3 online when they first came out. Got two more for my parents in the ADA height shortly thereafter. I got them at Lowe's and had to return and exchange one because I didn't like the look of the glazing. My most recent acquisitions were the Champion 4 one-piece elongated ADA and the Vormax Optum. I ordered the Champion online and got the Vormax at The Home Depot because that's the only place that sells it. So far, I have been extremely pleased with both.

I think that Toto and American Standard (even if they are copying Toto's ideas) have finally got it right. Except for looks, Kohler really needs to do some more tweeking. Not sure about Gerber, except for their Ultra Flush pressure assist. Even though they were total water hogs, I really, really miss the American Standards, Gerbers and Kohlers from back in the day when they really, really worked.
 

hj

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They are not made for homes, because they take a lot of water for a very short period of time, and home water systems cannot do that. That is why toilets have tanks, so they CAN deliver the required (stored) water over a short time period.
 
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