Help with proper settings for Fleck7000 SXT Softener

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Smilloy

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Hi Everyone,

A few years ago I had my well replaced. The water from the new well, was significantly harder than the old well, so we replaced our softener. (Old well 20-25 GPG, new well 130 GPG).

The Fleck 7000 came pre-programmed and has a 16x65 tank (4cu feet resin).
Our water also had significant Iron, so we had an iron filter system installed.

The initial settings on my Fleck700 were as follows.

B1-10
BD-99
B2-3
RR-10
BF-56

The BLFC does not have a label on it, however based on the 56m setting above, and amount of water in the brine tank, (and salt usage) I am assuming it is 0.25 GPM.

When the system was originally installed, the capacity was set to C=96 (96,000 Grains). With 4cuf of resin, I understand the maximum setting would be 120,000 (with 15lb salt / 30,000).

Originally i had problems with the softener running out of capacity before a regeneration cycle occurring, so I retested the water multiple times and still had 130. So what I did was reduce the C value rather than adjust brine fill / cycle times. I essentially tested the water every 100g until I was not getting soft water, then adjusted the C number to get me that amount of gallons.

Recently, I have noticed salt residue on countertops, and read this could be from over-regeneration, too much salt etc. So last night i tested the water again, and was at 120 GPG.

So last night after testing, i went back to the controller and found that my Capacity setting was at 36 (36,000 Grains). I swear I did not set it to that, but its been a few years so anything is possible I guess.

Regardless of how it got set to 36, I can not imagine using a softener this size and only getting 36,000 out of it.

So with a 56m brine fill time and a BLFC of 0.25, we are getting 14galllons of water in the tank, and using 42 pounds of salt per regeneration, which is 10.5lb per cuf of resin. According to what I found online, I should get 96,000 capacity with a salt usage of 8lb, so the defualt settings were essentially correct with a bit of safety built in (should be able to get 110,000 using 10.5lb)

But then why were we getting hard water prior to the system running out of capacity. (water was professionally tested by installer, and my kit is one with 3 different chemicals where the water goes from purple to blue), so I am fairly confident that the hardness is correct.

Basically what I am trying to figure out is the best setting for my system. We have extremely hard water, so is it better to run the system more often (With less salt), or less often with more salt etc.

I am going to assume the salt residue was from the system running too often, but I am concerned that changing it back all the way to 96C is going to leave me with hard water between cycles. Should the BD/BF etc settings be changed, or do you think they are set fine?

My original though was that perhaps i need to run the BF longer, (with the increased capacity setting), however everything online says that my softener "should" work with the current settings, and 96,000 capacity (and it should not run out of softening capacity unless we go over the safety factor)
 

Smilloy

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Another note is that I am not 100% confident that my BLFC is 0.25GPM. I looked on the control valve where the brine line is, but there was no tag / markings.

If the BLFC is actually a 0.125GPM that might explain why I was running out of capacity when ti was set to 96,000.

I know that I go though approximately 10 bags (20kg) of salt every 2 months. If I was really using 42lb per regeneration, i would only get 10 regeneration, which is approximately 1 every 6 days. I am pretty sure the system was cycling every 3 days, which would mean 21lb per cycle, which is more consistent with the salt use i have seen.

Could this explain why the system was running out of capacity (only using 5.25lb per cuf of resin), and why lowering the capacity to 36C might have made sense at the time?

Perhaps I need to manually regen the system and fill a bucket to be sure?
 

Reach4

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130 GPG: Impressive. Your math looks good to me.

I think the DLFC sets the backwash rate. But given that you have a 0.25 BLFC, it is not clear that things were set up for such a large tank. I would have figured they would have used a bigger BLFC. So checking the DLFC might be a good idea. I wonder if the backwash rate is sufficient. I also see that ""Backwash flow rates in excess of 7 gpm (26.4Lpm) or length in excess of 20’ (6 M) require 3/4" (99 mm) drain line." So make sure your drain line is not restricting things. Your DLFC should probably be about 7 GPM...I guess there would maybe be a way to measure that.

You have an iron filter before your softener. Was this in place from the beginning?

Regarding white residue, I would expect that anyway. Since softening is an ion exchange, you will have a fair amount of salt in your water when the softener is working.

I was wondering how you measure 130 GPG. If you use the Hach 5B, you would need to dilute your sample with distilled water to get it within the range of the test.
 

Smilloy

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Originally the installer used his test kit and the results were (140-150). he also took a mason jar and took it with him for a lab test he said. (results were similar to 140-150). The well is almost 3 years old now, so perhaps that is why we are now at 120 GPG?

I bought a home kit (I dont have the name with me, but will get it). It consisted of 3 liquids. Directions said fill vial to 80ml level, add 20 drops solution 1, 5 drops solution 2 (dark blue), then add drops of solution 3 and count the drops. When water turns blue, that is hardness.


As for the Iron filter, it was installed before, the 16x65 Fleck, but after my old softener. (originally had a 30,000 grain one, but it could not keep up with the hardness so i had to upsize it). Both were installed by the same person who arranged for the well driller etc.


Also i am not positive what the DLFC is (or how i can check it), and i am not 100% positive that i have a 0.25GPM BLFC as there is no tag that i can find. I guess i can take it apart to find out for sure?

I am pretty sure only 1/2" line was used for the discharge, and it runs far more than 6m. No idea how to measure this, when it runs, it sounds like it is under pretty good pressure so I would be afraid of a mess.


When I purchased the new softener, I gave the supplier the hardness information, and he sized the system, so i would assume it has the proper configuration of parts. The system was working fine (other than increased salt in water from before). Only complaint is the amount of salt i use.
 

Reach4

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You could ask the seller what the BLFC and DLFC were. If he says 0.25 and 7, then I expect he is accurate. If he says 0.50 and 7, then I would worry more.

If you had the right conditions, you could see how long the backwash drain water took to fill a 5 gallon bucket. But that could be messy. 7 GPM is a high flow. It is more than a normal bathtub faucet.

Regarding how to check your DLFC, I think somebody with actual experience could tell you that including the meaning of the numbers. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-water-bypass-during-regen.46495/#post-339766 The DLFC seems to be inside the right angle that feed the drain line on top of the controller.
 

ditttohead

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A few things.
1: Be sure to dilute your sample with pure water prior to testing to get an accurate hardness. The hardness test kit you are using is rated to 30 GPG so dilute it accordingly and do the math, this will give you a more accurate reading.
2: Compensated hardness (not for iron) needs to be considered. Above 100 GPG a compensated hardness of a 1.5 factor is common. Please see the link for more details. (sorry, my web editor is acting up so the page is a little of for today). http://www.impactwaterproducts.com/#!softener-sizing/c23g7
3: we must know the BLFC size, otherwise we are only guessing. A 4 CF system can will commonly have either a .125, or .25 BLFC. Also, what injector? You may also want to check the DLFC button while were at it.
4: Is you iron system removing the iron properly and completely prior to the softening?
5: Spotting will occur regardless. High TDS, either sodium, calcium, magnesium, etc will spot. Your TDS is likely in excess of 2000 ppm.

My suggestion. Assuming your injector is correctly sized.

Set the system to 96,00 grains
32 pounds of salt (3 pounds of salt per gallon of water in the brine tank, 88 minutes refill for .125, 44 minutes for .25 refill.
Hardness, use the chart shown on the link, a 1.5 factor is recommended, then do regular testing to cut it back slightly to maintain soft water.
Brine draw time is based on the injector size.
 

Reach4

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Is it the combination of the injector and the DLFC that controls the backwash rate? Or is the injector only important to the brine draw?

looks like a useful video. If things were working better but are not now, maybe a little cleaning would help.
 
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ditttohead

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The DLFC has nothing to do with the Brine draw rate. The injector and water pressure are the primary factors. The DLFC is non restrictive to the brine draw process.
 

Reach4

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The DLFC has nothing to do with the Brine draw rate. The injector and water pressure are the primary factors. The DLFC is non restrictive to the brine draw process.
What controls backwash rate?

I had been presuming that brine draw is working fine, so I was thinking elsewhere. Smilloy is clearly an unusually articulate and studied poster. He has related actual salt consumption to expectations. So I was thinking Smilloy would have noticed a brine draw problem. However with BD=99 I guess the draw could be excessively slow and still empty the brine tank each time. That does seem to be a long brine draw. Why would that longer time be-- high hardness, 4 cuft of resin, or what?
 

Smilloy

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Hi Guys,
Last night I was up in the middle of the night and checked it while it was running. There was 20-30 minutes left on the BD cycle so I checked the brine tank. It appeared to be empty (maybe 1/2-3/4 inch) of water on the bottom, but i assume that was as far as it could go.

Why 99 minutes, not sure thats what it was set to by default.

Two other notes, i just popped the BLFC and there are three markings on it. 25, 604 and F.
It is small and black. Perhaps those numbers mean something to you guys?

Secondly, I went online and printed the instructions for my test kit rather than using the guys instructions from the store. Turns out there is a diluted test (10 drops + 3). More interesting however, was that i found out the test is PPM not GPG (thanks store).

So in the test last night 120 drops = 1,200 PPM
Diluted test today 45-48 drops = 1125-1200 PPM
Using 1,200 PPM we get 70 GPG (much nicer than 120!)

I popped off the DFLC (i think, it was a 90 degree elbow) but i could not find any markings. It was a 3/4".
I noticed the plumber reduced the 3/4" down to 1/2 right after the elbow.

If the numbers on the BLFC do not mean anything to you guys I guess i will have to do a sample with a bucket and stop watch.


Seems to me like the factory settings were very generic and perhaps not set right?


I have a variable speed pump, water pressure set to 55 and only fluctuates +-2PSI due to the pump / tank
 

Reach4

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Two other notes, i just popped the BLFC and there are three markings on it. 25, 604 and F.
It is small and black. Perhaps those numbers mean something to you guys?

Secondly, I went online and printed the instructions for my test kit rather than using the guys instructions from the store. Turns out there is a diluted test (10 drops + 3). More interesting however, was that i found out the test is PPM not GPG (thanks store).

So in the test last night 120 drops = 1,200 PPM
Diluted test today 45-48 drops = 1125-1200 PPM
Using 1,200 PPM we get 70 GPG (much nicer than 120!)
Ditttohead will know for sure, but the 25 sure seems likely to be 0.25 GPM. I guess the system is not bypassed during brine fill, so taking longer than a 0.50 would does not really matter functionally.

70 GPG is much better for the raw water.

Ditttohead asked about the injector color. That YouTube video shows how to get to that. It seems easy enough.
 

Smilloy

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I will pull the injector tonight, I just did not have time at lunch to do that part.

The thing that does not make sense to me is that if it is a 0.25GPM, then either the system was running far less than i thought, or something else is happening.

Since 0.25*56m=14GAL, which equals 42lb salt per cycle. If i am only filling the tank with 10 bags every 2 months, the system could only run once every 6 days.

On the surface that makes sense, until you consider the control was set to 36,000 with 130 grains ( with 10% safety) meaning Only 276 (or 250Gal per cycle). So far by noon today we had already used 100Gal, so there is no possible way it was getting 6 days per cycle.
 

Reach4

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I think I had misinterpreted your comments about salt usage. I had thinking you were saying that the salt usage was about what would be expected. You are saying that salt usage is much less than expected.

I wonder if you could be getting a salt bridge? I would try breaking up the salt if you can. I am probably over-cautious, but I like to tilt my salt fill such that I can see a little water after adding salt. I figure that will prevent salt bridging. My softener is much smaller and has much less to deal with than yours. Maybe it is time to clean your brine tank. Stop adding salt for a while. Salt in a brine tank is very heavy. I cleaned mine. In retrospect, I would have let the salt level get much lower before doing that.

Ditttohead is very knowledgeable and experienced. I just have one old softener and a backwashing filter, but I like reading and studying this stuff.
 

Smilloy

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Originally when I was typing I thought the water level in the brine tank was consistent with 0.25, but then after doing the math I realized the salt usage didnt add up with how often the system runs.
I can almost guarantee there is no salt bridge, the system has a "shelf" with 4 openings for salt to enter, and i have never had it bridge. Also i am always refilling it after the same period of time (this has been 10 bags per 2 months) since I got it. (the bring tank for this unit is huge, maybe 30" round, and 45" high.
 

ditttohead

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The Brine Line Flow Control is .25 gpm.

There are many other problems that could be occurring or programming issues. Considering the problems that have already been stated, lets try this.


1: set time to 12:01 P.M.
2: push and release the “regen” button
3: push and hold ^ v buttons for 7 seconds to enter master program mode
Push and release the “regen” button between each step to get to next step
4: DF set to Gal,
5: VT set to dF2b,

6: CT set to Fd
7: C Set to 96.0

8: H set to Actual hardness in GPG (please buy a Hach 5B test kit soon)
9: RS set to SF
10: sf set to 15
11: DO set 14
12: RT set to 2:00
13: B1 set to 8
14: BD set to 60 (assuming a white Injector, 90 minutes for Red)
15: B2 set to 5
16: RR set to 10
17: BF set to 43 for .25 BLFC,
18: FM set to t1.2

The DLFC inside the drain 90 is probably backwards. Remove the rubber button and reinstall with the numbers facing the valve. Water flows through the numbers, same for the BLFC. The BLFC is a directional flow control, in draw it is unrestricted.

As to the "what control backwash during brine and rinse, the water only flows through the injector so the injector acts as the flow control during the brine and rinse cycle.
 

Smilloy

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Thanks Dittohead, I will give it a try.

When I pulled the DLFC 90 i did not see anything that appeared to be removable but will double check. Appeared to just be solid plastic with a hole approximately 1/8 to 3/16" in diameter (will double check)

If the BLFC is indeed 0.25 GPM, any idea why I would be going though less salt than expected (see above post).

I am only asking because I know that a year ago I had a problem with the unit running out of capacity, when it was set to 96. So lowering the hardness to 70, upping the C to 96, and lowering the BF to 43, seems like i am going to have the same problem again since i am upping capacity significantly and lowering the salt used.
 

Reach4

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When I pulled the DLFC 90 i did not see anything that appeared to be removable but will double check. Appeared to just be solid plastic with a hole approximately 1/8 to 3/16" in diameter (will double check)
I have marked the DLFC button with a red arrow. If I understand correctly, there should be numbers on the underside of that. If no numbers, pull the button and replace it numbers-down. Post the numbers. Remember to apply silicone grease to any O-rings that you install/reinstall. I don't know what the practice is for the DLFC button itself.

pix_3.GIF
 

ditttohead

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Do not lube the button. It should be replaced every 5-10 years or when the flow is no longer accurate.

I would go through the master programming as I posted and see if there are any variables. The programming is continually evolving and being tweaked so my programming guide may be slightly off to your valve. BW instead of B1 is common, same for the Flow meter t1.2 is a recent addition, years ago it was t1.5.
Once this is programmed, it should be accurate and use the right amount of salt. Don't forget to use the compensated hardness based on the link to my website. Also, please get a Hach 5B test kit. This is a critical tool for the DIY'r. I would be glad to ship you one at cost to help you out.

The valve has some diagnostics capabilities as well that we can use once the valve has been programmed accurately.
 

ditttohead

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7.jpg
I forgot to mention, the DLFC should be approximately 7 GPM (700) assuming normal water temperature of approximately 60 Degrees F. assuming you have a 16" diameter tank.
 

Smilloy

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Popped the DLFC, it does indeed say 700. (was upside down).

Pulled the cartridge out. Bottom was yellow, top was white. (appeared to be coated in something black?)
Cartridge might have been partially blocked in the small hole at top, looked like a grain of sand in it, blew on it and it was gone. Not sure if that mattered.
Screen was essentially clean just a few small particulates.

Did a practical test with the BF. 6 minutes yielded 5850 ml, which is just a hair over 1.5Gal, and the valves open /close slightly after the clock starts so makes sense.

All the other settings in the control look to be accurate other than the DO (it was off).

The only real difference i see is the BD (white or red cartridge... but mines yellow?? )
and the BF you suggest 43.
Like i mentioned above my biggest worry reducing salt dose is that it runs out too soon. Are you not worried about this?
 
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