Help me with the madness of choosing a toilet!!!

[cbiscuit]

So, my wife and I just moved into a new house. The toilet is stamped 1975, so I'm thinking it is a 5-7 gpf-er. I am looking to save some money, as our move made our water/sewer bill skyrocket, probably on account of the toilet situation. I was just going to drive myself to HD and pick up a toilet, but I'm the kind that will research something to death, which is what I have done with a toilet now. I have paralysis by analysis!

I started with a Glacier Bay because it got high ratings on Consumer Reports and it is $88. Decided to skip it. Then I started researching Kohler and American Standard models. In doing that, I have found out about Toto and the HUGE amounts of loyal Toto-ers there are, especially on this forum, which everyone raves about and references.

My wife would like a round bowl because of marking issues after doing your business. I would like an elongated, but feel that the bathroom needs the space, so I'm cool with a round (or something 28ish and below, depth-wise). I have discovered CEFIONTECT and AS's EverClean. Are they really all that they claim to be or is it more marketing hype? Kohler doesn't have one, so what does that mean?

Here is what I'm looking for:

ADA/Comfort/Universal/whatever-you-call-it height
Round bowl
No skid marks
1.28gpf

Ideally, the 1.28, ADA, CEFIONTECT Drake, but it only comes elongated with those parameters (or does it come round?)

I then found the Entrada, but it doesn't seem to come with CEFIONTECT (or does it?), or does this not really even matter much?

So, I'm down to: Entrada (sans CEFIONTECT), a Kohler Cimarron (not great in the skid mark ratings category), Kohler Memoirs, and maybe a Delta Prelude (maybe). I have read enough negativity surrounding the AS Champion 4 and Cadet 3 to sway me to avoid.

So, toilet forum, what say you?

 

[SamC]

I don't find any difference between round and elongated for skid marks. If the water spot is really small, as with some of the dual-flush models, skid marks are more likely, and positioning far enough back becomes a priority, but it doesn't sound like you are looking for a dual-flush. Unless a space problem in the bathroom demands a round front, the elongated is more comfortable for guys.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WJcandee]

I understand exactly where you are, because it happened to me, so I will just cut through it and make recommendations based on my personal experiences and my time on the forum.

If you like the looks of the Entrada, which I do, then just buy it. The CEFIONTECT is nice, but it's not essential. The Entrada is a best buy. Works exceptionally-well and priced right. And it has a significantly-higher quality level than the Glacier Bay.

I like Consumer Reports, and have for decades, but if you look at their toilet recommendations over the past five years, they have picked some real stinkers to recommend, and I now just ignore (or sit back and mock) their toilet choices. (That said, a friend put the $100 Glacier Bay elongated in her bar and it worked fine until someone smashed the tank; then the whole toilet had to be replaced because the version they sell this year is different from the one 18 months ago and the current tank didn't fit on the old bowl, so a simple job (change a tank) became a more-complicated job (replace the whole thing)). The fill valve in the new Glacier Bay is cheapo and will need to be replaced very quickly in that commercial application and I'm not a fan of the flapper in the thing either. It runs and it flushes well, for now, but it's noticeably-different quality than our Totos and isn't going to last as long or work as well. If I had the option between that and the kind of poorly-performing junk that some builders put in new homes, I would take the Glacier Bay and swap out the fill and flush valves (installing the Korky products) and end up with a decent toilet. But by the time you do that, you can have the Entrada, a much better toilet, for only a little more.

As I said, I had the same agonizing to do when buying our first Toto. We now have 3. I worried that the elongated was too long for one bathroom because the distance between the front of the toilet and the side of the bathtub wasn't huge, and put in a round Drake. We put an elongated Drake in the other bathroom. In retrospect, the elongated would have been just fine and if I had to do it over again, I would have just bought two elongated. Really, you won't regret the elongated. These days, we only recommend the round if you have some kind of architectural element that absolutely requires the slightly-shorter round, like a door that will bump into the toilet if you put in the elongated. You won't notice the extra length, but you will notice the extra comfort.

If you want the CEFIONTECT, then the Drake is a great toilet as well. But as you may notice, you can only buy the Original Drake (CST744) in either CEFIONTECT or ADA, but not both. If you want that combo, then the Drake II (CST454CEFG) is a fine toilet, including the double-cyclone (swirl) flush, CEFIONTECT and Universal Height, and is priced well considering that it has all those features. However, it's hard to say that it's worth paying more than the Entrada to get those things. If money is an issue because you just moved into a new home, save the money and spend it on something else nice in your house.

Since you are a researcher like I am, research prices on your toilet, because Toto prices vary widely. We have some tips on this forum about that.

 

[cbiscuit]

What is considered a small water spot? They will clearly be smaller than what I have now, but what is small?

So the CEFIONTECT shouldn't be a deal breaker? The double-cyclone flush - is that what the Entrada has? Is that worth it?

Money isn't so much a concern because of moving, but more of a bringing myself to paying 500 for a toilet...I just want a lot of bang for my buck.

Also, I forgot this in my original post, it looks like the Kohlers use a proprietary Aquaflush thingamajig. This seems like it might be difficult to repair/replace when it breaks, right? Toto uses standard stuff?

 

[SamC]

Water spots are:
Entrada .................... 8 3/8 x 10 1/2
Drake ........................ 8 1/2 x 10 1/4
Aquia (dual flush)..... 4 1/2 x 6
Water spots on elongated and round-front are the same.

Drake II has the double-cyclone rinse.

The 1.6 gal and 1.28 gal Toto toilets use flush valves (flappers) available at the big box stores. Dual-flush and 1.0 gal Totos use custom flush towers.

 

[WJcandee]

You should be able to find the Drake II with all the bells and whistles, in white, for $325 to $350 plus tax, if you do some research, locally in your area. Entrada elongated 225 to 250. Entrada doesn't have the swirl, it has the GMAX flush, which works great.

 

[cbiscuit]

So the double cyclone and asana gloss is actually worth the extra $100?

FYI, the round and elongated water spots are different per Toto's spec sheets.

 

[Jadnashua]

SanaGlos does help...it is super smooth (like a freshly waxed car) and while stuff can still stick, if it doesn't wash off during the flush, it is easier to brush off. Is it a deal breaker, no. My Totos are older, so I do not have any experience with the dual cyclone, but reports indicate it does provide a better bowl wash than conventional systems.

 

[WJcandee]

So the double cyclone and asana gloss is actually worth the extra $100?

You know, it's hard to say. Depends upon how much a hundred dollars means to the purchaser and what they are looking for. I often take the position that one should buy the Toto that looks best to them, that does the job they want it to do, because they all perform well. We have two Original Drakes (no CEFIONTECT, GMax flush) and one Carlyle II (double-cyclone flush, CEFIONTECT). We love them all. The fancy one is in the master bedroom. As it turns out, the round Drake is in the bathroom that gets the most use, which I didn't realize until I installed it. It handles that load very nicely, and doesn't require anything amazing for its weekly cleaning. The Carlyle II does have a little better bowl rinse, but it's not like we constantly have skid marks on the Drake. Indeed I -- me -- have never experienced it, but I can't say for sure about other family members. Certainly, nobody has complained about it.

If skid marks are currently an issue and you're concerned about having great bowl rinse, I would go for the Drake II because of the CEFIONTECT and double-cyclone.

Hope this helps. You can feel good about either purchase.

Video of our Drake's GMax Flush. Entrada should be similar:

TOTO Drake Dual Flush:

 

[cbiscuit]

Thanks for the replies!! Based on this, I feel confident with either, so I'll let the boss decide. That being said, I like bells and whistles, so if it's the Entrada, I know that will always be in the back of my mind.

What does it come with (read: what else do I need to buy)? Flushing mechanism/flapper? Wax ring? Seat? Supply line (and if not, what length? It's taller, so just add 1.5"?) etc?

Again, thanks all!!

 

[WJcandee]

Thanks for the replies!! Based on this, I feel confident with either, so I'll let the boss decide. That being said, I like bells and whistles, so if it's the Entrada, I know that will always be in the back of my mind.

What does it come with (read: what else do I need to buy)? Flushing mechanism/flapper? Wax ring? Seat? Supply line (and if not, what length? It's taller, so just add 1.5"?) etc?

Again, thanks all!!

Well, if you're installing it, the first thing you need to do before ordering it is get out the tape measure and measure from the finished wall (not the baseboard) to the center of the closet flange. Since you don't want to pull the existing toilet to do this, use the center of the bolts or bolt caps on the existing toilet as a good approximation. This is called your rough-in. The standard rough-in is 12". A few eighths of an inch either way won't make a difference, but if it's 11.5" or 13 inches, come on back and we will talk about your installation options.

The thing comes with all the guts for flushing already in the tank, and any nuts and bolts needed to put the two pieces of toilet together. When you're ready to install, do read the directions, because attaching the tank and getting it nice and stable takes some touch and maybe a couple of tries the first time you do it. A little bit on each bolt, back and forth, while holding the tank vertical, is the best approach.

You will need your own wax ring. One ring if the the flange is higher than the finished floor. Two if it's below the finished floor. Korky also makes a nice waxless seal that has the advantage of allowing you to pull the toilet back up if you want to without having to scrape off and reinstall the wax ring(s). I generally use wax, but I tried the Sani-Seal on the last one I did, and it was nice. I'm eager to try the Korky, as I have heard good reviews. Plumbers don't put the wax ring on the bottom of the bowl and then mount the bowl. They put it on the flange and then smush the toilet down onto it. In this respect only, ignore the instructions, otherwise, the Toto instructions are pretty good. Also, Jamie (Terry's son) has a shortened version of what you need to do posted above. It assumes you know to do a few common-sense things, so also read your own toilet's instructions.

On the Toto, you will also need to get a seat. They furnish a seat on the one-piece toilets, but not on the two-piece. The Toto will take any standard seat. I like the SS114 Toto heavy plastic slo-close seat, and the family actually likes the (harder) wood Mayfair/Bemis slow-close seat with the easy-clean hinges. You can poke around the store and find a seat of any brand that you think will look nice and feel nice.

The length of the supply is going to depend on where your water supply is located more than anything else. Most of the time, people get one that they just loop around to take up the excess.

Come back with any other questions.

 

[Reach4]

If you don't have a nice quarter-turn shutoff now, consider replacing the current shutoff as you are doing the work.

 

[WJcandee]

Reach4, as usual, makes a very good point!

 

[SamC]

Please show me where the water surface specs are different between the round and elongated Entrada and round and elongated Drake. I double checked and they still look the same to me. The Aquia only shows elongated.

 

[cbiscuit]

Please show me where the water surface specs are different between the round and elongated Entrada and round and elongated Drake. I double checked and they still look the same to me. The Aquia only shows elongated.

My bad. I was comparing a Drake II to a Drake. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[cbiscuit]

If you don't have a nice quarter-turn shutoff now, consider replacing the current shutoff as you are doing the work.

Good call. I have one of the oval handled ones that you have to turn 500 times. I will replace with a quarter turn.

 

[cbiscuit]

Whoa. Family Handyman says I need a soldering torch to remove the old shut off! That is beyond my abilities, comfort level, and tool-having-ness. Is that really necessary? Can't I just hacksaw the old one off and add a new one?

 

[Reach4]

Whoa. Family Handyman says I need a soldering torch to remove the old shut off! That is beyond my abilities, comfort level, and tool-having-ness. Is that really necessary? Can't I just hacksaw the old one off and add a new one?

How about posting a closeup side/top view of the old one. Usually that would be a compression or screw-on valve rather than solder.

 

[cbiscuit]

It appears to be a screw on. I may have jumped the gun on posting. Sorry. I cried wolf.

 

[WJcandee]

I would stay away from the torch, but if it's screw or comp, it's usually pretty easy. Do post a closeup of it and we'll tell you what to get.

It's not essential; it's just a good time to upgrade, as long as you're working right there, but there's nothing that says that it can't be changed a week, month, year, decade from now. There is no time saving from doing it at the same time as the toilet.

And when you install your new Toto, read the directions and what they say trumps whatever advice you get from your "family handyman". I have seen too many screwed up installs on here because the handyman fancies himself too good to read the directions and does something stupid like put the metal washer over the rubber washer inside the tank, then wonders why it leaks. (A classic handy-hack screwup is to put the metal washer inside the tank, because they seem to have an extra washer in the kit and don't know what to do with it. Let the leaks begin.) I have actually seen Youtube videos and web pages in which the handy-hack confidently installs things this way. Oy. Read the directions. They are your friend. After all, the manufacturer only designed and built the thing. What do they and their engineers know about plumbing?