grounding 2000W inverter generator

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by Smith333, Jul 14, 2011.

  1. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    "Make sure the system is grounded according to local regulations."


    [​IMG]


    For Your reading Pleasure;

    http://www.electrical-design-tutor.com/generatorgrounding.html

    http://www.cumminspower.com/www/literature/technicalpapers/PT-6006-GroundingAC-2-en.pdf

    http://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/grounding_port_generator.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)


    "The terms ground and grounding are used in US electrical practice. In the UK the equivalent terms are earth and earthing."
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  2. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    That is not a recommendation or requirement to connect to earth.

    Should this generator be connected to a transfer switch then the grounding of the premises wiring is required to be connected to earth and this would be the local regulations that is being referenced not the installation of an electrode system for the genset.

    The devices outlined in the original post is not part of the premises wiring system and is nothing more than an extension of the generator receptacle then no earth connection is required.

    As defined in the NEC an automobile does not have a ground wire anywhere in its electrical system but instead has a connection to the negative post of the battery which in layman’s terms is called ground. This is where a lot of confusion comes to the reference to ground in the premises wiring system of our homes.
    In our homes the word ground means a connection to earth. It is through the main bonding that the fault current is allowed to return on the neutral conductor to the source which causes the fuse to blow or the breaker to trip.
  3. Smith333

    Smith333 Member

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    108
    jwelectric,

    Do you agree with the recommendation to bond the ground and neutral inside of the inlet? The generator has overload protection but GFCI is not specified. Thanks.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2011
  4. Furd

    Furd Engineer

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    IF the Honda generator has a built-in GFCI then I agree with jwelectric. If it does NOT have a built-in GFCI then the method I suggest IS acceptable.

    OR you could use a portable GFCI between the generator and the power inlet in the garage. This is probably the best option.
  5. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    No
    Do nothing but lpug it in. The receptacle that you are plugging the cord into on the generator is GFCI protected.
  6. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    no this is not acceptable.
  7. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Study this info and decide.


    The only thing that you need to do is Ground the Electrical generating source, at the source.
    The Bonding is done internal inside the generator.


    Period...
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  8. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    The first two links are for fixed generators and the third link says the same thing we are trying our best to explain to you
    A portable generator does not need nor require a earth ground.

    The bonding is done to the frame of the generator
  9. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Do it how you want to do it, I will do it and recommend the way that it should be done correctly.


    The original poster wanted facts, not opinions.


    The Facts are in the docs...
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  10. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    So all that is left to do is for you to read and study them. Any and all of the links that you posted is nothing more than opinion. The facts come from the code books and the code book is what I have quoted.

    What you have done is muddy the water with a lot of junk and opinions. In this thread you have not made one statement of fact but only your opinion which is wrong.
  11. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    That is your opinion, And I respect that.

    Guess we agree to dis-agree.

    That is cool.

    There must be at least a million electricians and electrical engineers that are wrong.

    What would grounding the system hurt ?.

    Without the source being grounded The GFCI may be tripping balls. And could be smoking the attached items.

    Having the proper Ground will not hurt, and will protect all equipment involved. Including the user.


    Have a Great Day.


    DonL
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  12. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Osha Can't be wrong, or can they ???
  13. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Not my opinion but fact
    This may be true
    nothing more than a waste of time
    True it will not hurt but it will do nothing to protect anything

    No they got it right;
    Grounding Requirements for Portable and Vehicle-mounted Generators
    Under the following conditions, OSHA directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) that the frame of a portable generator need not be grounded (connected to earth) and that the frame may serve as the ground (in place of the earth):• The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator and/or cord and plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, § 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and
    • The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal combustion engine, and the generator’s housing) are bonded to the generator frame, and the equipment grounding conductor terminals (of the power receptacles that are a part of [mounted on] the generator) are bonded to the generator frame, § 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B).
  14. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    I hate to even jump in on this one. All Don is saying is that it couldn't hurt to ground the frame of the generator.
    The original poster said he is basically running everything off extension cords plugged into the generator. The original poster also mentioned that the antenna has its own ground rod, and that the cable line is grounded to the copper water line. A TV connected to the cable or antenna will therefore have a ground connection, although not a decent one through the coax.

    The TV has a 2 or 3 prong plug JAR3332?

    This gets complicated. The generator has a neutral, which is a derived neutral, and it is grounded to the generator's frame. My experience with derived neutrals is when using 3 phase transformers in an industrial environment to get other voltages than the plant voltage, and these transformers have a neutral connection that needs to be used by the machinery connected to it. Those derived neutrals, must not be grounded unless it is bound to the building's service neutral, otherwise serious ground loops and ground currents are created. This should be simple.

    Will a ground connected to the generator cause a problem here? I don't think so, but I am certainly not sure. Is it necessary like the consensus of the majority here say? probably not. Could it hurt as Don says? probably not. Am I sure of what I am saying ? Probably not. Am I being non-commital here? YES!:eek:
  15. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    If this was true;

    The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator and/or cord and plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, § 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A)

    But that is not the case.

    Instead the system will distribute power to Items thru the use of electrical outlets and wiring within the house. That is where the problem is. The ground should be at the source, Not thru the antenna, cable, or anything else.

    To be exact, and correct, too meet code It should be wired into a Grounded Disconnect Switch or a Grounded Switch Over, If connected to the main service.

    For the application that it is serving, an Grounded Switch Over is not needed or required.
    But the outlets should be marked.

    If it had to be inspected, I doubt that it would pass. Unless Mike is the inspector.


    DonL
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  16. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    Don, I don't know what to say. He said he ran wiring to outlets in the house, yes, but they were isolated from all other house wiring, kind of like he made up extension cords made out of romex with sockets in the room and the other end plugged into the generator's panel.

    his words, copied and pasted: "These three outlets are not connected to the house's electrical service in any way. When the power goes out, I must unplug the UPS from the wall outlet and into the generator powered outlet." What he did is most assuredly not to code. If he ran plain old extension cords plugged into the generator and the TV plugged in to the cord at the other end, the generator would be hooked up as designed.

    I have a transfer panel in my house. I have to look at it when I get home and see if the outside receptacle plug is 4 prong. I have a Generac 4700XL that I bought for the Y2K fiasco and made my house quick connected for the basic needs of lights, and oil burner, plus some outlets. I don't remember the grounding setup. I used it only once about 6 years ago when we had a 5 hour blackout on the East coast on a hot August day. It did the job real well. I even ran the ceiling fans on it (lighting circuit).
    Try to enjoy this very hot July day.:)
    Bob
  17. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Wht not? Give us a code section that it is in violation of.
  18. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

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    I go away for a few days and I see our friend is just as clueless and stubborn as ever.

    DON, INSTEAD OF POSTING LINKS, PLEASE PROVIDE THE CODE SECTION YOU ARE CONTINUALLY TELLING US REQUIRES THIS. PLEASE!!!
  19. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

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    You mean the links Don posted actually support our stance?

    So him telling us to study this info and decide is a bit hypocritical, huh?
  20. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    You guys are so good with the codes, You tell me the Code Requirements, for the OP's setup.

    I should not have to tell you what is wrong.

    Are you missing a page in your book ?


    Have a great day.


    DonL
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