Ground Wire to Water Pipe

Users who are viewing this thread

Robc0367

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Hello Everyone,
I hope this is in the right forum to post this question.
The previous owners of our house replaced the well pump a few years before we bought the house. Who ever installed the pump ran new pipe from the well to inside the house. They cut off and capped the old pipe leaving just a 4" stub sticking into the basement. This is where the ground wire from the electric panel is connected. The new piping is a mix of plastic and a metal going to the pressure tank. Since there is plastic piping in the mix, I'm assuming that all the pluming in the house in no longer connected to earth ground.
Is this a potential problem? If it is a problem, can I run a "jumper" from the old pipe to a place on the piping after the plastic?
I hope this make sense to someone. Thanks in advance for your help.

Rob
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
If you have a Electric water heater it needs to be grounded.

Pipes can no longer be used as a ground inside of a house.

Your Well Pump does need to be grounded, and you can do that.

You may need to drive some Ground Rods. I think #6 or larger wire is required for bonding.

jwelectric would know for sure, But putting jumpers because of PVC is not a good Idea, to me.

Wire can not carry as much current as Pipe. That can mater if you take a lightning strike.

Is your Electric Service still Grounded ? It needs to be.


Good Luck on your project.
 
Last edited:

Robc0367

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
If you have a Electric water heater it needs to be grounded.

Pipes can no longer be used as a ground inside of a house.

Your Well Pump does need to be grounded, and you can do that.

You may need to drive some Ground Rods. I think #8 is required for bonding.

jwelectric would know for sure, But putting jumpers because of PVC is not a good Idea, to me.

Wire can not carry as much current as Pipe. That can mater if you take a lightning strike.

Is your Electric Service still Grounded ? It needs to be.


Good Luck on your project.

Yes, my electric service also connected to an outside ground rod outside.
If I understand you correctly, the plumbing pipes throughout the house do not need to be connected to ground?
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
If there is 10 feet or more of metal water pipe in contact with earth then it must be used as an electrode but it is also required to have two 8 foot rods installed. The interior piping unless it is 100% metal pipe does not require any thing.
The well and water heater will be grounded by the equipment grounding conductor that is with the branch circuit supplying them.
 

FullySprinklered

In the Trades
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
208
Points
63
Location
Georgia
If there is 10 feet or more of metal water pipe in contact with earth then it must be used as an electrode but it is also required to have two 8 foot rods installed. The interior piping unless it is 100% metal pipe does not require any thing.
The well and water heater will be grounded by the equipment grounding conductor that is with the branch circuit supplying them.
So, when I replace a PRV and have to work around these bare cu wire and clamps that jump over the valve; that's a lot of cow pattie if the water line to the house is plastic?
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
If the underground pipe is plastic then why would anyone jump around a pressure relief valve to connect to the nonmetallic pipe?
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,599
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
Even when the line to the house is plastic, good practices tells you that there should be a copper stub at both ends. And the first time you remove a PRV by grabbing the pipes on either side of it and receive a jolt, hopefully not life threatening, you will wish you had those "bare wires and clamps" spanning it.
 

Kreemoweet

In the Trades
Messages
754
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Seattle. WA
Since there is plastic piping in the mix, I'm assuming that all the pluming in the house in no longer connected to earth ground.
Is this a potential problem?

What basis do you have for making such an assumption? The water service piping is just one of many possible
locations where plumbing systems can be "grounded". How old is the wiring involved? Are there ANY
ungrounded circuits? If your wiring is modern, with all electrical loads protected by Equipment Grounding
Conductors, then there is little need for such bonding, although it can't hurt anything and will certainly give
protection from certain highly unusual failure modes.

On the other hand, if there are ungrounded circuits present, and you do not have definite knowledge that no
connections exist from equipment so served to any metallic piping,then you should try to make sure all accessible metallic pipe sections (of ALL systems: water supply, drains, natural gas, etc.) are bonded together and to the grounded conducter in your service panel. And by
"definite knowledge" I mean you are fully aware of what is or isn't going on inside walls and other cavities,
not just what you can see with box covers removed.

What your current water service piping is made of is irrelevant.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
Understanding the need for bonding metallic piping systems is where this all begins.

We get accustom to only seeing the types of systems we install and forget that the codes engulf all installations.
There are two major installations, in cities and in counties. Sometimes the counties follow the same criteria as those in the cities but this is beginning to fall to the wayside.

In years past all city water systems were all metal. The NEC has always required that if there is at least 10 feet of metal in contact with earth that this pipe be used for an electrode.
Now just what is the purpose of the grounding electrode? The answer is found in 250.4 of the NEC. It outlines four reasons why we bond our systems to earth. 1- lightning, 2- ling surges and there is a big difference between a surge and a spike, 3- unintentional contact with higher voltage lines, remember the higher the voltage the higher on the pole it is carried, 4- to keep everything stable, earth is a magnet and solar flares induce current in our electrical lines.
If in a large city where the entire or at least most of it is metal and the code requires us to use a metal water pipe as part of the electrode system then the entire metal water system will be in parallel with the neutral of our electrical systems. Bonding of these metal pipes is now important to protect the plumbers from electrical shock.

In cities where the water utility is metal and someone loses a neutral then current will be carried on that metal piping system to the nearest point on the water system that it can to return back to its transformer. Here bonding is very important, it must be done within the first five feet of metal water pipe that enters the building thus connecting this metal water pipe to the service neutral.
Out in the country where the home is on a well and there is no intercity metal pipes then bonding is not so important as there is no path for current back to the service transformer except through earth. The higher the resistance the less current will flow.

250.104(B) of the NEC tells us that if the piping system is not 100% metal then bonding can be achieved by the equipment grounding conductor included with the circuit that is likely to energize the metal pipe. No other bonding is required.

If there is a building that has 100% metal water pipes but is supplied by nonmetallic from the water source to the building then bonding is required but this bonding can be done at any accessible point on the pipe and is not required to be done within the first five feet such as when there is metal pipe in contact with earth. Over the years there has been many proposals to have this requirement changed but we must remember that there are many water utility systems still in existence today that are complete metal systems therefore the requirement remains in the code.

So now ask yourself just what type of water supply you have. If the interior is not 100% metal then I wouldn’t worry about the interior part. If the supply is metal then it is required to be used as the electrode. If the supply is not metal then I wouldn’t have any trouble in sleeping at night if no bonding was done.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
What basis do you have for making such an assumption? The water service piping is just one of many possible
locations where plumbing systems can be "grounded". How old is the wiring involved? Are there ANY
ungrounded circuits? If your wiring is modern, with all electrical loads protected by Equipment Grounding
Conductors, then there is little need for such bonding, although it can't hurt anything and will certainly give
protection from certain highly unusual failure modes.

On the other hand, if there are ungrounded circuits present, and you do not have definite knowledge that no
connections exist from equipment so served to any metallic piping,then you should try to make sure all accessible metallic pipe sections (of ALL systems: water supply, drains, natural gas, etc.) are bonded together and to the grounded conducter in your service panel. And by
"definite knowledge" I mean you are fully aware of what is or isn't going on inside walls and other cavities,
not just what you can see with box covers removed.

What your current water service piping is made of is irrelevant.
The EGC plays on part in the bonding of metal pipes and bonding metal pipes will not make a circuit any safer by bonding metal pipes
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
It is called common sense, 250.104 states; “Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded”.
Should there be a complete copper system installed this would be a metal piping system.
Should a system be installed using CPVC this would be a non-metallic system.
Should a system be installed using both CPVC and copper this would be an integrated system.

Then there is the code making process. A new edition of the NEC comes out and proposals are sent in for changes in the next edition. These proposals are discussed by the Code Making Panel and a Report on Proposals is sent out for everyone to look at and then send in their comments. After the comments are sent in the CMP discusses them and a Report on Comments is then sent out for all to read.

These ROP and ROC describes the intent of the CMP in detail. A copy of these can be obtained at NFPA.org. A study of these will let any simple minded person understand that bonding of an integrated piping system is just about as silly as trying to bond a non-metallic system.

The NEC has no control over the IPC and the IPC has no control over the NEC. The electrical code cannot mandate how a plumbing system is to be installed nor can the plumbing code mandate how an electrical system is to be installed.

A metallic piping system is installed from the well to the home, pressure tank is located at the well. The electrician bonds the metal pipe within the first five feet as outlined in the NEC. Everything is code compliant.

Plumber comes out to effect a repair on the metal pipes and at 6 feet inserts CPVC pipe for the repair. This is in compliance with the plumbing code. Now what? Plumbing inspector does not have the power to mandate something from the electrical code and the electrical inspector is not involved with the plumbing inspection. So now there is a metallic water piping system that is legally installed with no bonding. This happens every day of the week.

250.104(A) address metallic water piping systems, 250.104(B) addresses integrated water piping systems. Copper throughout the house but Pex used to install the water heater. We now have an integrated system and the EGC for the water heater is all that is required to bond the system.

Yes it is there in the NEC.
 
Last edited:

Kreemoweet

In the Trades
Messages
754
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Seattle. WA
It was formerly common practice (and sanctioned by the then-existing electrical codes) to run wires from
any convenient spot on a metal pipe to various electrical outlets and appliances, in order to "ground" them,
when the existing wiring did not have a grounding means (knob&tube, ungrounded NMC, etc.).
Sometimes, it was obvious, such as a wire run from a washing machine in a basement to an exposed run
of metal pipe. Other times, these connections were made during a remodel and hidden entirely inside
a wall or ceiling. Based on my own observations in the remodeling biz, I would venture to guess that at least 50% of houses from that era have one or more such connections. In a city such as I live in, that means many tens of thousands of houses. Now, like it or not, that means that the plumbing system has de facto been made
part of the electrical system, and in fact, the metal pipes have been turned into Electrical Grounding
Conductors. I think it blindingly obvious why, as long as such connections may exist, it is important to keep
the electrical connections between the metallic piping and the ground/neutral bus in the service
equipment intact. This of course means "bonding the pipes", whether the pipes remain one unified
"system" or ten disjoint "systems". What the bonding requirements for new electrical installations
(which, of course, will have appropriate EGC's included) may be is simply irrelevant to the question
of what is the safe, wise, and appropriate thing to do in such situations. Might I add, any such
bonding will usually be cheap and easy, if attended to when needed.

It was not that long ago that the UPC, at least, explicitly disallowed the use of non-metallic piping
for repair/replacement/extension of a metallic piping system, without prior special permission from
the AHJ. Sadly, that provision was widely
ignored by ignorant plumbers. Even sadder, it was also widely ignored by ignorant plumbing inspectors.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
It was formerly common practice (and sanctioned by the then-existing electrical codes) to run wires from
any convenient spot on a metal pipe to various electrical outlets and appliances, in order to "ground" them,
when the existing wiring did not have a grounding means (knob&tube, ungrounded NMC, etc.).
In the early 1960s was the first requirement for an Equipment Grounding Conductor to be included with a three wire receptacle and then it was only for a clothes washer. During this time frame all plumbing in most homes was metal either the threaded or copper types. Also during this same time period the NEC required that all metal piping system (gas, water, ect.) be made and kept electrically continuous. It was permissible to install the EGC from the receptacle to a metal water pipe.

By the mid to late 70s the allowance to use the metal pipe as the EGC mandated that the pipe be bonded and electrically continuous but by the 80s the requirement to keep all metal piping systems electrically continuous was removed and the metal piping system could no longer be used as the EGC.

Unless the EGC is bonded to the neutral at the service equipment then the EGC is useless. The EGC is the fault clearing path and MUST be bonded back to its source. Connecting a wire to a ground rod serves no purpose for the safety of an electrical system. 250.4(A)(1) tells us why we are to connect an electrical system to earth. 250.4(A)(5) tells us why we MUST bond to the service neutral,- to clear any fault current or to make the fuse or circuit breaker work.

Ohm’s law proves how connection to earth has no bearing on the safety of the electrical system. I=E/R. 120 volts divided by 25 ohms equals 4.8 amps nowhere enough to blow a 15 amp fuse. If it was possible to get the resistance of the earth connection all the way down to 8 ohms then we would reach the rating of the fuse but it still would not open.

Many states are like NC, in so much as an electrician cannot install plumbing and a plumber cannot install bonding jumpers unless they have licenses in both trades. An electrical inspector cannot mandate a plumbing rule be enforced nor can a plumbing inspector enforce an electrical rule be enforced.

As a multi-trade inspector I run into this daily with CSST gas pipes. The requirement to bond the CSST pipe is a manufacture requirement not an electrical requirement therefore I must turn down the mechanical installer for not having the CSST bonded. The mechanical installer then must hire an electrician to install the bond and get an electrical inspector to do the inspection.

This was the problem with the plumbing and electrical code requirements concerning metal piping systems installations. The plumbing code cannot require any type of electrical installation and the electrical code cannot require any type of plumbing installation. The CSST requirement is a manufacturer requirement aimed at the mechanical installer and is enforced by the mechanical inspector although the mechanical installer cannot make the installation unless he also holds an electrical license.

This CSST requirement is the reason why the plumbing and electrical codes removed their requirements concerning metal piping systems. A good example is an inspection I made a couple of months ago of gas log insert in a fire place. CSST gas piping was used for flexibility and ease of installation. When I went to do the inspection a can of worms was opened that got several complaints called in to the office about the dumbass inspector by the homeowner. The electrical bill was higher than the mechanical bill simply because of the requirement to bond the CSST pipe.

Those folks involved with the code making process realized that a simple plumbing repair could end up costing some poor old couple on a fixed income more than they could afford so the requirement to make and keep metal plumbing pipes electrically continuous was removed from the codes. I see the tinfoil gas pipe falling along the wayside for the same reason. In many cases it is not cost effective.
 
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Points
1
It is called common sense, 250.104 states; “Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded”.
Should there be a complete copper system installed this would be a metal piping system.
Should a system be installed using CPVC this would be a non-metallic system.
Should a system be installed using both CPVC and copper this would be an integrated system.

Then there is the code making process. A new edition of the NEC comes out and proposals are sent in for changes in the next edition. These proposals are discussed by the Code Making Panel and a Report on Proposals is sent out for everyone to look at and then send in their comments. After the comments are sent in the CMP discusses them and a Report on Comments is then sent out for all to read.

These ROP and ROC describes the intent of the CMP in detail. A copy of these can be obtained at NFPA.org. A study of these will let any simple minded person understand that bonding of an integrated piping system is just about as silly as trying to bond a non-metallic system.

The NEC has no control over the IPC and the IPC has no control over the NEC. The electrical code cannot mandate how a plumbing system is to be installed nor can the plumbing code mandate how an electrical system is to be installed.

A metallic piping system is installed from the well to the home, pressure tank is located at the well. The electrician bonds the metal pipe within the first five feet as outlined in the NEC. Everything is code compliant.

Plumber comes out to effect a repair on the metal pipes and at 6 feet inserts CPVC pipe for the repair. This is in compliance with the plumbing code. Now what? Plumbing inspector does not have the power to mandate something from the electrical code and the electrical inspector is not involved with the plumbing inspection. So now there is a metallic water piping system that is legally installed with no bonding. This happens every day of the week.

250.104(A) address metallic water piping systems, 250.104(B) addresses integrated water piping systems. Copper throughout the house but Pex used to install the water heater. We now have an integrated system and the EGC for the water heater is all that is required to bond the system.

Yes it is there in the NEC.
My point was, there is nothing mentioning 100 percent, as you made that up. If anything, broken sections of mixed metallic and nonmetallic pipe become more dangerous than this imaginary 100 prevent number you dreamed up. Don't give me your interpretation of code. I read code and code alone. Save your fairy tales for someone else.i know better
 

ActionDave

Electrician
Messages
418
Reaction score
9
Points
18
Location
Colorado
My point was, there is nothing mentioning 100 percent, as you made that up...
Once you have a piece of plastic in the piping you no longer have a metallic piping system you have a plastic and metallic combo system. The code is clear and is limited to metal water piping systems, not piping systems with metal in them.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
My point was, there is nothing mentioning 100 percent, as you made that up.
try nfpa.org and read the ROPs for yourself

If anything, broken sections of mixed metallic and nonmetallic pipe become more dangerous than this imaginary 100 prevent number you dreamed up.
Care to explain how? Educate us on just what makes this mixed plumbing so dangerous
Don't give me your interpretation of code. I read code and code alone. Save your fairy tales for someone else.i know better
Not fairy tales my friend. Do research and you will find that my knowledge of the code making process if founded in cement. I sit on several committees and panels and have been teaching the NEC for 15 years to electrical inspectors. One of the few instructors certified by the state of NC to teach inspectors. This is through the Department of Insurance
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks