GFCI Outlet Questions

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by kailor, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. Jim Port

    Jim Port Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Maryland
    None of those appliances listed have a 20 amp cord end. The overcurrent device would trip at the same point if overloaded if 20 amp T-slot devices were used as it would with 15 amp slotted devices.
  2. ActionDave

    ActionDave Electrician

    Messages:
    351
    Location:
    Colorado
    Provided you are comparing the same grade of recepts. there is no difference in the internal parts. The only difference is the extra slot in the plastic face.
  3. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    The point is that 2 appliances drawing 10 amps = 20 amps. Elementary

    As to the receptacle internals, better take one apart and carefully inspect a 20 vs a 15.

    You would say that a 15 amp breaker is the same internally as 20 amp breaker?
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,134
    Location:
    New England
    No, I think it is you who are missing the point and providing misleading info.

    A commodity (builder) grade outlet is not as sturdy as a commercial grade one, but the ability to provide the rated current is identical. A commercial grade device will often provide a longer service life in a home, but is only useful if it is used where items are installed and removed regularly. A good, middle of the road device would last as long if you say plugged in a lamp and left it there for years. A commercial grade device often will last longer, but that is not the point (and it may only last as long in a heavy commercial use situation as a utility grade one in a home). Two 10A devices into one 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit won't blow the CB (or shouldn't), and is an acceptable load as EACH receptacle is rated for the 15A. The only thing a 20A receptacle gains for you is the flexibility of plugging in a device spec'ed to REQUIRE more than 15A into the device. A commodity (builder) grade 20A receptacle is no better than a 15A device in that respect. If you want sturdy, pick a commercial grade device.

    A 20A CB isn't made 'better', it has larger contacts because it is designed to carry more current. The internals of a decent receptacle of the same class (commercial-commercial, builder-builder) are the same between 15A and 20A when spec'ed for 20A pass-through, since the whole thing must still pass 20A.
  5. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Larger contacts, tighter grip pressure, better metallurgy, heavier plastic, and not a lot of cost difference in commercial grade receptacles. Seems like the right thing to use in a kitchen where outlets get put to big tests.

    Just try weighing your 69 cent home depression receptacle and a commercial grade 20 amp version. All that reeks of "BETTER" to me. A little bit better usually means a little bit safer.

    The cost is not much more than the 15 amp version anyway...

    http://www.electricalmarketplace.com//Decorative-20-Amp-Receptacles-10-pack-P41.aspx

    And for 5 or 6 bucks you can get a hospital grade receptacle.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  6. Jim Port

    Jim Port Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Maryland
    The same could be said about a .69 cent 15 amp and a $2 commercial grade 15 amp. Since toasters and mixers don't have 20 amp cords you would be wasting your money installing a 20 amp T-slot device..
  7. ActionDave

    ActionDave Electrician

    Messages:
    351
    Location:
    Colorado
    You try this at home and report back what you find. Once you do you may be disappointed since they are the same on the inside.

    Don't fret though, there is a better grade available. This is the receptacle for you. They are the best money can buy. Nothing else on the market even comes close.

    If a little bit better is a little bit safer then a whole lot better is a whole lot safer, no?
    [​IMG]

    * Audio Grade
    * Ultra heavy-duty triple wipe contacts
    * Silver plated solid brass terminal clamps, mounting stap, rivets, and grounding strip
    * Glass filled high temperature nylon housing
    * Superior ground contact
    * Wattgate Three Layer Plating Process*
    * 20A/125VAC

    *WATTGATE Three Layer Plating Process
    1. Oxygen free copper plating
    improves conductivity

    2. Electroless nickel plating
    necessary to prevent the leeching of the copper through the pure gold layer

    3. 24k gold plating
    improves conductivity

    http://www.wattgate.com/products/381/
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  8. ActionDave

    ActionDave Electrician

    Messages:
    351
    Location:
    Colorado
    Excellent post.
  9. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Confused posts. You guys must be bored. Semantics and antics.

    Yes, a little better is better, and a lot better is better yet. And really better can be the best, if you install it better than a homeowner.

    A little better O-ring on a certain space shuttle would have saved a few billion dollars and several lives. For a few bucks more.

    You guys use your 69 cent receptacles from china and mexico, where the plug barely holds and hangs down exposing the hot blades, waiting for that aluminum foil or butter knife from your kid to experiment with. I'll go for something that GRIPS a plug.

    And finally, all such plugs and receptacles in the USA are Sh*&^, and dangerous. The europeans laugh at our plugs that do not shield the hot portions while being engaged and disengaged. Your NEC really fails us as a nation with that absurd system.

    Have a look: Chad, Niger, Poland and Slovakia have more brains than "US" -

    http://electricaloutlet.org/type-e
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  10. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I did a search of all the forums here looking and couldn’t find even one post beg you to stay here. If you are not happy with us them please feel free to move to one of those places you mentioned above.
  11. Jim Port

    Jim Port Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Maryland
    You still do not need to install a 20 amp T-slot device to accomplish the same thing. You can just install a better grade of device. Given enough usage even the more expensive device will still lose grip and need to be replaced. Even the 69 cent devices meet the required grip retention standard set by UL.
  12. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california


    Excellent post. Rather odd writing from a moderator. Thought they were supposed to hold to a higher standard.

    This topic was about receptacles, not my popularity. I get deleted when I go off topic, so I stayed there by your orders.

    I am rather surprised that someone as yourself that has a very bold stance on safety in Electricity, does not consider the mechanics of US plugs VS. those of other countries. I thought you would welcome the issue.

    And I assure you that Slovakia is a VERY nice place to live. And much harder to get a household shock in.
  13. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    I could agree with that, but UL tests only a few out of millions, and quality control can be a bit shoddy in Mexico and China on a bottom of the line device.

    On that point, take a look at different brands of circuit breakers: I see "homeline" juicing the contact terminals for the bus bar with a grease or anti ox at the factory.
    Others that cost more did not. Its all in the details. Brake rotors all look the same, but some warp in one week, and others never.
  14. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    North Carolina
    And they are just as human meaning they have an opinion mine of which is simple. If you feel that our products are dangerous but those of other countries are so much better then by all means move over there and be safe.
    If you are content to live here with the safety we impose on factories then don't complain about someone having something that in your opinion is better some where else. In my personal opinion out products are just as safe or even better.
  15. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    When our receptacles and plugs and tens of thousands of other widgets were made by small, family owned companies, in our country, and the chain of command could be traced back several generations, we had a culture of pride in a product well made.

    And we had competition that caused relentless work to upgrade and do the other guy better.

    Now, a few mega corps have gobbled up most all of our manufacturies, moved the bulk of them to the third world and retained or raised the price of the products from when they were made here. Greed. I consider our safety at risk from products we used to take for granted.

    I do not see any treason in suggesting that we could redesign our products to a higher standard.

    Some studies found 40% of UL labels counterfeit on imported products.

    I have several "UL" clamp on lights that the slide switch shoots all the way through on, the case falls off in pieces while trying to turn it on or off, exposing all the internals, And the stores have thousands of these electric sabotage items in stock. Same story with the "UL" halogen stand up lights - you could build a mountain with that junk, melted terminals, melted cases, sparking, switches starting on fire.... And the chinese bulbs that could be used as flash bulbs in a camera.

    Electric imported heaters? You could write a book on the hazards of them.
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